It's been said before, when you get X amount of enthusiasts together, there will be a few rotten apples in the bunch. Whether it's egos or stupidity, it's always the same. I love MOTD, and I was sad I couldn't make it this year, but I usually have more fun running the Dragon on my own. I was up there last September and had so much fun. Besides Killboy, there were only 2 other MINIs up there, mine included. I drove 129 so much that I wore down my S Drives. I think if people would stop for a moment and put the show off mentality to the side, things would be so much better. Hopefully next year people will step back and evaluate their skills. Hopefully the MINI crowd can regain the reputation of being courteous drivers. We can expect this kind of behavior from the Honda Civic crowd, but MINI doesn't need this kind of rep.

 

They have to be. They'll explode if they run off the road!!!

 

I too think a witch hunt is non productive here but input and peer pressure is important and beneficial. I raced bicycles for five years and believe me when your'e 50 riders elbow to elbow doing descents in the Vermont mountains at 60 MPH, being predictable, safe and holding your line is absolutely critical. One serious mistake could end up taking the entire field down like Dominoes.

But there was a strong comradity in an intensesly competitive sport. So when you saw a squirilly problem rider you did something about it. You let him know what he was doing wrong, took him out in smaller groups and worked with him. You fixed it. He became a better rider and everone was a little bit safer.

And you know what? Even the veterans made a stupid mistake once in a while like hitting a pedal on a tight inside corner and taking us all down. Everyone laughed it off and nursed the road rash because it was a rarity and a mistake. But I can assure you that anyone who did not take their responsibility to be safe seriously was quickly ostracized. There was no place for it bike racing nor is there on the dragon with people literally throwing tons of steel around sharp corners.

With all that said I don't want to join in any witch hunt but there is nothing wrong with pointing out when someone has crossed the line, in this case quite literally. KillBoy's original blog post did just that. Let's hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

 

I agree. It is truly regrettable that "Killboy" was put in a bad situation but with his profession being what it is, I'm sure that comes with the territory. That does not excuse dangerous driving by any means. Very glad everyone involved was ok. Hopefully, the drivers involved will learn and improve - There will always be newbies (like myself) and thrill seekers who push and / or exceed the limit. I'm just not real comfortable with one person getting so much criticism for having a bad encounter with a more established person. Again, I do not know the whole set of circumstances just like 98% of the other people on here. I imagine the Mini driver feels really bad and hopefully will never make that mistake again, but there will always be another driver or rider who will. Advocating safety on the Dragon is a wonderful thing and I am thankful for all of the advice I was able to garner before my first trip-I just think it is counterproductive to single one person out as the poster child for bad driving.

 

Every year when I get to the dragon my thoughts are "I hope that I don't end up on killboy's site over the line!" Now with several other photogs in the mix that fear is multiplied! That being said, my mantra is "it's better to have a clean run than a fast one." This was my first year in my new (to me) MINI and while I am not excusing the behaviour of any of the offending drivers, I do want to point out that each MINI handles differently and until you are out there on the road, you just don't know how you or the car will react. Drive slower until you get a feel for the car and then continue to drive slow. haha.

 

Said before, but I'll say it again :

While I agree education is key, it seems to me that it's not working.
2 Newbie Orientations were held and at least one that I saw, given the size of the MOTD group, were poorly attended.
A How To Drive The Dragon video was posted by Barry on the MOTD site.
Numerous posts about safe driving were posted here and on MA.
Announcement made by Barry at the Welcome Dinner about safe driving.

So, education efforts were made and obviously completely ignored by some.
I'm not thrilled at having to do a wall of shame for next year, but if that's the only way to expose the few idiots who are destroying a 9 year MOTD reputation, then I'm all for it. Pictures, names, license plates...what ever it takes.
I am a 9 year veteran and I WILL NOT have MOTD banned from Fontana because a few idiots insist on behaving as such. If public exposure of bad driving and naming names is what we have to do to police our group, then sadly, that is the route that MUST be taken.

 

Really?
He was driving home for goodness sake. Because he lives down there he just has to expect to be run off the road?


Another car was coming toward him in his lane, passing another car in a blind corner. He had no where else to go in his car except into the passing car, or off the road. It doesn't matter who was run off the road, what the MINI driver did was unacceptable. It wasn't just driving beyond her means, or getting a bit out of control, she was making tragically bad driving choices that could have caused a major accident.

 

[quote=Mol;3277874]Really?
He was driving home for goodness sake. Because he lives down there he just has to expect to be run off the road? quote]

Where exactly did I say he should "expect" to be run off the road? I AGREE with you! My point by saying what I said was that if you live there and you make your living taking pictures on the side of a mountain where thousands of people come to drive - you will encounter more of this type of behaviour than someone who doesn't.

 

[QUOTE=FordGT40;3277982]You said "more or less comes with the territory." I'm no English major, but to me that can be the same as saying "expect to be hit." All Molly is trying to do is to let people know that the MINI community's very good reputation is on the line up at the Gap. I live down here in Florida, and just because these idiotic snowbirds come down here every year with their Winnebagos doesn't mean I should be expected to encounter lollygagging and oohing and awwing over the ocean when they should be paying attention to the roads. What this boils down to, is patience and paying attention. What if that had been law enforcement instead of Killboy?

 

[quote=Fatherdeth;3278011]You are proving my point. If you live by the ocean, you are going to encounter people who don't see it every day are going to ooh and aww instead of pay attention to the road. Does not mean that they should, but some will, and if you are driving those roads I'm sure you are on the lookout for the gawkers, just as Killboy was. Probably what saved his life. Anyway, twist my words how you want - Internet forums - gotta love 'em.

 

[QUOTE=FordGT40;3278036]Im not twisting your words. Now I see why so many of the founding and veteran members of this forum don't even come around anymore!!

 

So anyway on the few runs I made Friday and Saturday went like this: First run motorcycle in front of me has a steel bar in front of the foot pegs and digs it into the asphalt nearly wrecks. Second run bike loses control crosses yellow headed into blind curve. Third run bike with passenger loses control exiting corner crosses yellow on straight away truck has to come to complete stop to avoid head-on collision. Forth run is Cherohala Skyway Loop finish Dragon Run still on 129 and pass a multiple bike pile-up. Yeah we need to stay in our lane, police our own etc. but every time I go up I see at least one bike either lay it down or drive into the side of the mountain.

 

I guess I'm missing your point here. What difference does it make what the bikers did? We should be striving to maintain our reputation of being amongst the safest drivers on the dragon. When the locals like KillBoy chime in to point out things were different this year in a negative way we should all collectively try to find a way to correct that. Let's not make it a trend.

It can't be addressed only by the event organizers as they did a great job of emphasizing safety throughout the event. As to the nOOb orientation it was very well done and those who chose to skip it not only missed some
invaluable tips on how to drive this thing safely but missed out on a good bit of serious fun as well.

I just don't see why calling out the behavior of other riding groups relieves the MOTD participants of their responsibility to drive safely.

 

I guess I am still pissed off from last falls MSSD. When the group of MINIs I am in is held up by a slow bike, and two bikes pass us on the left in a blind curve in front of Killboy. Guess what? he would not post the pictures of the bikes on the wrong side.

 

I have yet to make it to the dragon and am wondering... are the orientation classes mandatory? I think they should be for all 1st timers as well as the newbie run on the dragon. When I do make it out there I will be in that class and on that first run

 

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make it up for what was supposed to be my first MOTD. Yet, after reading this thread - I'm a bit scared about going next year - for fear of making a newbie human mistake amd incuring the wrath of the MINI people.
Maybe, I'll just play hooky one day and go up and have a run or two or ten....

 

There would be no way to inforce a mandatory class. You have to keep in mind, that lots of folks don't even register and just show up and drive the roads too.

 

I agree, the thought of making an orientation class mandatory is impossible. Also, ego will prevent some of the new people from even wanting to take the orientation or the newbie run because they think they don't need it. Also, how about the first timers who drive in on the dragon and not even know that they are on it? That was the case with me in 2007, I was with another car and he had the GPS so I did not know that we were going in that way. I sure was glad when we got to Fontana after that!

 

I think this thread has brought up some good points and served it's purpose. I will be creating several large "safety reminder" banners to display at the Fontana exits onto NC28 and in the village itself. I will also include a "safety reminder" handout in the registration bags. We will most likely have a large poster board of photo's showing how not to drive the dragon in the registration room. Add to that the overall hightened awarness of our community on this subject, I hope we will be able to eliminate the bad traits exhibited by a small percentage of our group this year.

 

Pegs - dont let this discussion keep you from attending MOTD. IF you drive within your limits, don't push yourself and use common sense you will be just fine. There are a few places were you can pull over and take a breather if you want. We do that sometimes and it's fun to watch the MINIs go by. Continue your run to the overlook and chat with everyone, then head back for a burger or snack at Crossroads, and then chat with everyone some more. It's a lot of fun.

 

I am pretty sure I have seen photos of motorcycles crossing lines on Killboys site. I am guessing since he has such a personal interest in MINIs and since he was almost hit, he is highlighting the MINI safety issue. You still have a good point in that motorcycles probably had as many safety infractions as MINIs last weekend. I think it is also correct in saying the only accident on the Dragon during MOTD 9 was caused by a motorcycle crossing the double yellow and hitting a MINI. Still not a bad idea for us all to be extra aware of safety issues.

Come up for MOTD 10. There is lots to do other than drive the Dragon! I would guess that a fair number of us actually avoid driving the Dragon at MOTD! And for incurring the wrath of the MINI people, I saw a similar post a couple of years ago and if the *offender* acknowledged that he erred and learned from seeing himself cross the lines, the MINI people became rather forgiving pretty quickly. For me the wrath is coming from the fact that some of the *offenders* seem to be repeat offenders and that in at least one case the driving behavior is becoming more dangerous not less. (To be completly fair that person may not even frequent the boards and may have no idea of the kerfuffle that has been caused.) I think it all comes from a good place and none of us want to see a fatality or serious injury that could have been avoided.

Great ideas for next year Barry!

 

I apologize in advance for the long post and any poor grammar and spelling. It's been a long day and I have been up for nearly 24 hours at this point.

I'll start by saying that, we do our best to "highlight" bikes and cars for bad driving, it isn't one or the other, it's both. The number of good behavior highlights always out numbers the bad, but we tend to remember the bad stuff over the good. And when it's your group it becomes a big deal, next week it'll be someone else.

This is the first chance I've had to get on the forums since the rally. I must say I am very, very happy to see the proactive response toward safety. Some groups just brush it under the rug and forget about it.

In the past the MINI group has been highly respected for their good driving behavior, and has been one of our favorite groups for years. I guess that is why this years behavior came as a shock.

Having been involved in a head-on collision myself, due to another riders poor judgment, we take this type thing very seriously...let me tell ya,it's not fun being on the crap end of that stick. Sure people are going to get mad at us for pointing out bad driving, but if it keeps someone from going through what I went through, and continue to go through, it's worth it. I wouldn't wish the physical and mental pain on anyone. I know that Mol takes this personally, as she was there for me during my healing process. We talked online, over the phone, and she came to visited me after I was released from the hospital. So she has seen first hand what I went through and understands the pain, and I love her for caring so much =)

I have a lot of faith in the MINI group that things can and will be better for next years event, for the group as a whole. There have been other car groups in the past with really poor driving reputations, but those groups really turned things around, and are making great strides to enforce safety. There will always be a couple bad apples, that is understood, the goal should be to keep those to a minimum. And from what I understand, the 2012 rally has the potential to be huge (being the 10th anniversary and all).

As for my husband (killboy) being ran out the road, that is the first time he has ever been run completely out of the road, by anything other than a semi in the 10 years he has been here. We are very thankful that the accident was avoidable and no one got hurt.

We don't want to encourage a "witch hunt" for the lady that ran my husband off the road, and have her banned from future rally's, that really isn't our intention. There is a lesson to be learned from what happened, and help others not make the same mistake. You don't see a person that has never drank in their life coaching an AA meeting...people, myself included, tend to heed advice from someone who has been through the experience more so, than someone who hasn't. That is why the lady in question would be the perfect person help enforce the safety issue. And I hope that she will continue to visit the area and help reach out to others.

Short story here...A few years ago I had a close call on a motorcycle with another rider. I found him at the Deals Gap store, and talked to him about what had just happened. At first he was a bit embarrassed, as anyone would be, and didn't have much to say. But a week later he came to me and apologized for what had happened. My husband and I ended up becoming very good friends with him after that. So these type of situations don't have to end badly, with people being enemies, you can turn out to be friends in the end.

We would like for everyone to be able to enjoy their time in the area, however long or short it maybe, no matter if it's your first time or 20th time here. Everyone has the right to enjoy themselves while on vacation. Just make sure your actions don't kill the enjoyment for someone else and end the vacation early. We've always loved ya'll, even before we owned a MINI. We don't want to see such a good reputation go down the drain, let this year be something to learn from. It's easy to get caught in the excitement of being here, but try and not let it take over and cause you to make poor decisions.

On a side note...I finally got to do the Midnight run in my MINI this year and I had an absolute blast! I've been there for the midnight run for the last 6 years or so, watching from the side of the road, but this was my first time participating.

Here's to looking forward to a bigger and better rally in 2012

 

Very well spoken Killgurl.

Kindest regards,

Charlie

 

Snooter, thank you for all of your hard work that made my first MOTD amazing. I am looking forward to next year! Isuldor, I have to agree with you about some bad slower drivers. Saturday, we made one last day run and got stuck behind a green Justa that, even going no faster than 25mph, couldn't stay in the lines. It was pathetic. Luckily after a couple miles they pulled over.

 

Great comments Killgirl! Glad you and your husband were safe and hope we are more impressive as a group next year!