I am in pseudo-desperate need of some advice on brakes. I'm running a Cooper S at the track and have had VERY bad luck with my current configuration:

Stock rotors/calipers
Ferrodo 2500 pads front/rear
ATE Super Blue fluid
Kosei wheels w/ Kumho V700 R compounds (205/40-17)

My wife and I share the car on track days so it is essentially doing 4 forty minute sessions with a 5-10 minute break in the middle. I would (grudgingly) pay for a BBK, but neither StopTech nor AP Racing fit inside the stock S-Lites. While I wouldn't typically run the car with the S-Lites at the track (as the run-flats are still on them), they are what's on the car 90% of the time.

I have no issue with changing pads at the track (though I'd rather not have to do the rears as they're a bit of a pain) if that's what is needed.

If the JCW brake kit could use a real track oriented pad, that would be an option too.

If anyone has any insight/suggestions on this, I'd be really appreciative. My main goal is to improve on braking for the track without needing to buy another set of wheels for street use (I already have two sets of s-lites, the Kosei's, and mounted snows... no more room for wheels!).

Thanks in advance,
Peter

 

The Ferodo 2500 pads aren't up to the task. They are more of a performance street pad.

My personal preference is Carbotech pads.

http://www.carbotecheng.com/appguide-pads-mini.htm

The Panther+ is a good start. It could be driven on the street if you didn't mind the noise and dust.

From there, I'd probably go to the XP9, which is a slightly more aggressive pad with better fade resistance. You'd want to change it at the track though.

For the rears, I'd stick with the 2500's or run something like a Bobcat, Axxis Ultimate, or even the Panther+, depending on what type of bias you were looking for.

If you wanted to stay with Ferodo, switch to the 3500's for the front.


I haven't used their products, but people I know also speak highly of Cobalt products. http://www.cobaltfriction.com

The Spec VR is what you'd probably want.

Both Cobalt and Carbotech have good customer service. Give them a call and they can help you with the appropriate compounds. Prettymuch everyone I know is running either Carbotech or Cobalt.

 

pbrass,

I think you have greater needs than most of us due to your track use and two drivers.

Contact:
Ryan at
http://detroittuned.com/products/ind...Section=brakes
$900 for big brake kit

Or ToddTCE about the various brakes he sells for the MINI- state that you want to use your current wheels. Prices from $899 to $1295
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...s.pl?record=13

You might need to consider spacers for fit depending on which Brake kit you select.

The Ferodo 3500 track pads are better suited for you (not for street use).

 

Given the fit issues, the Wilwood 11.75 or the 12.2 (if it fits) seems the logical choice to me.

The 12.2 can be 'upgraded' a bit to a better rotor than the bling holes and slots. Pads are .625" thick for reasonable life, pad changes are quick and easy- E compound for the track, SS hoses are included, what am I forgetting?
Oh, installation could be done at the track in about an hour and a half in a pinch.

 

Thanks everyone for the quick replies.

The Wilwood kits look very intrigueing if they fit inside both the Kosei K1's and the OEM "S-Lites." Does anyone have personal experience with those wheels and these brake kits?

Is there a diverse selection of track appropriate pads for the Wilwood kits?

Thanks,
Peter

 

Currently Peter the pad selection is serviced more by Wilwood than other suppliers. This includes three or four popular compounds; A,B,E,Q,T.

A and B being very high torque track pads.
E the middle ground pad and that of the 11.75 kit.
Q and T the tame street compounds.

Other companies such as Hawk may well have something for this plate if not now, in the near future. In the mean time the pad for the NDL (also a .625 pad) could be made to work in this caliper with a bit of minor work.

Personal experience has shown the E compound to be very effective on moderate track use cars. The use of A or B will wake you up like you never dreamed of. But they can be harder on rotors and generate more heat as well.

 

Just out of curiosity... why not spend $125 on a set of pads to see if that might help you cause before spending $1000 on a brake kit, which in most cases you'll still have to turn around and buy new pads for before you can use them?

 

That's a fair question Jeff, but not a completely pure way of looking at it.

While I cannot speak for other builders, the Wilwood kits come with pads specific to the application. Meaning the 11.75 race kit comes with the E pads, the 12.2 street kit the Q pads. There should be no reason to consider pads other than those included for their intended use. Certainly not without first trying them.

Now...in fairness the E pads may prove too much for street use so an alternate set of pads for that could help. However this is often the case for stock pads as well; one for street and one for track. So he's really not spending more on pads in this manner than swapping out what he has currently. In fact the pads for the DP caliper are quite reasonable in price (see brake pads under Products on my page) and none anywhere near $125.

The answers to your bigger question however can be found deeper down the page under the topic "Do I need a BBK" where the pros and cons are better spelled out.

Adding 'HP' pads to the stock rotors WILL inprove brake torque. But this torque comes with a by-product; more heat. Which is not addressed in any way other than a larger and more effective rotor for improved thermal capacity.

 

JeffS:

I would definitely consider going with better pads vs. jumping straight to a bigger kit if I was relatively sure it would get me where I need to be. The biggest problem seems to be back to back sessions on the track with essentially no cool down time in between. I'm just not sure the stock rotor size is up to the task regardless of pad choice. That said, "real" race car drivers are actually competing with stock rotor sizes (I realize this is mandated by the rules) so it must be possible.

Unfortunately, I'm running out of time a bit as our next track day is May 20th and I would need to get something installed a few days before to properly bed them in. Additonally, we have a two day school in early June so I'm under extreme (spousal) pressure to get the brakes sorted out asap.

Thanks for the advise thus far,
Peter
<bashing head on desk in indecision>

 

I'm almost certain that the Wilwood calipers won't fit under the S-Lites. I don't think the JCW kit will even fit under the S-Lites. You're either going to have to stick with pad / rotor changes, or go with spacers, or change your street wheels.The Detroit Tuned kit might be the only BBK you could fit under those wheels, and I'm really not certain of that.

 

You might check out the brake cooling threads. Some tubing and wire ties might get your current setup to work. I went to an SCCA race 2 weeks ago and most if not all of the cars there had some sort of cooling setup. It would be cheap to try out before spending $$ on a BBK.

It's also very cool to have a wife that shares your track events.

 

Well, after more diggiing, it appears Wilwood does make a slightly smaller kit that would definitely fit both of my 17's... but it doesn't look to be available within my necessary time frame.

Thanks for the tip on brake cooling. I had initially thought about this route and then got distracted by the BBK's. True track pads and enhanced cooling may be what I need to go with in the short term.

-Peter

P.S. Yes, it's extremely cool to have my wife out there. The only downside is a lot of men kind of ignore her when she turns out to be faster than them out there. Big hit to the ego for somebody in a $50-70k car to get passed by a MINI... only to find out it's being driven by a woman. It would be nice if more people were open minded. Sorry for the rant.

 

They get used to it!

 

You would think and hope that they would eventually get over it. She'll keep attending events... and keep passing people! ;-)

 

Well, for timing reasons here's what I decided to go with:

Replacement rotors at all four corners: Powerslot Cryo.
Hawk HPS pads front & rear for everyday driving.
Hawk HP+ pads up front for track only.
Stainless steel brake lines all around and will continue to use ATE Super Blue.

Thanks to everyone who responded (especially Todd who spent a significant amount of time on the phone with me. Once I burn through these - and have more lead time available - I'll be calling you again to order a kit. Also to Alex @ the Tire Rack who spent a lot of time on the phone with me and with whom I ordered most of the above. Last to my friends @ Turner Motorsports where I sourced the brake lines.)... it's really nice to have such a large pool of people to bounce ideas off of.

-Peter

P.S. We'll be at Lime Rock on the 20th and I'll report on how they do after that in case anyone else is interested.

 

Hey, I'll be at Lime Rock on the 20th, as will onasled and CTMINI. See this thread:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=40868