Suspension FSDs w/lowering springs
There's something to the car load arguement...
It's true that a Mini when used as planned will sit at a range of heights. It's also an interesting question (unanswered to this point) about how far the FSDs need to be compressed to short out some of thier function. This number sure shouldn't be less than the range of normal suspension heights. This means there will be a window for slight lowering where the Koni engineers are happy!
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
3rd Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 237
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From: San Diego CA
It's true that a Mini when used as planned will sit at a range of heights. It's also an interesting question (unanswered to this point) about how far the FSDs need to be compressed to short out some of thier function. This number sure should be less than the range of normal suspension heights. This means there will be a window for slight lowering where the Koni engineers are happy!
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
It's true that a Mini when used as planned will sit at a range of heights. It's also an interesting question (unanswered to this point) about how far the FSDs need to be compressed to short out some of thier function. This number sure should be less than the range of normal suspension heights. This means there will be a window for slight lowering where the Koni engineers are happy!
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
But exactly what this number is, and how "soft" the change in behaviour is with additional compression. Without that information, this is all a curiosity, but little actual information is being exchanged.
Mattt
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 667
Likes: 1
From: Wappingers Falls, NY
Of course there is some margin in Koni's FSD design - it's not responsible engineering to ship a product that's parked right on the edge of a functionality cliff.
On the other hand, as a retailer, one shouldn't suggest a product be used in a way other than the manufacturer specifies, either.
-Roger (who has FSD's and stock springs
)
On the other hand, as a retailer, one shouldn't suggest a product be used in a way other than the manufacturer specifies, either.
-Roger (who has FSD's and stock springs
)
2nd Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 132
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From: Cypress, Ca
Same here!
Motor Happy!
Cheers!
Trent
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 95
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rhetorical questions
you're pretty much splitting hairs here... how often in the life of a mini's suspension are the shocks supporting the cars maximum carrying capacity...
in addition... worrying about the sprung weight of wheel changes is not worth bringing up in the discussion such as this imo... it's just doens't change enough of the equation.
Frankly... i've sounded like a dmh fanboi latley... but I haven't even given him a single dollar of my money... although i gotta go with him again on this one. There are very few of us on this board that know as much about suspension as koni... whether you like their company or not... they do have some good people in design and engineering.
That being the case... just because it "works" on a street car, even if you push said street car hard, doesn't mean it's good to go.
Many times with suspension you have problems going on that you won't know about until it is far too late to recover from. Or problems that don't surface very often and only show up under a certain set of parameters. On that note... are you willing to go against manufacterers warning on a part that is vital to you keeping your car on the road/track?
My thing with suspension is similar to my opinion on engine parts. There are alot of people that fancy themselves are car enthusiests... but remember engineers are engineers and hobbiests are just that... The people that get involved with r&d and product development with suspension, brakes and engine parts are very well trained... very well paid and are trusted to make decisions that will affect many thousands of motorists traveling on the highways and byways traveling safley through variable conditions or traveling at maximum speed as safe as possible on the track...
either way... i trust them more then i trust any fly by night... or even local mechanic/aftermarket parts installer...
in short... it's all about the research.
in addition... worrying about the sprung weight of wheel changes is not worth bringing up in the discussion such as this imo... it's just doens't change enough of the equation.
Frankly... i've sounded like a dmh fanboi latley... but I haven't even given him a single dollar of my money... although i gotta go with him again on this one. There are very few of us on this board that know as much about suspension as koni... whether you like their company or not... they do have some good people in design and engineering.
That being the case... just because it "works" on a street car, even if you push said street car hard, doesn't mean it's good to go.
Many times with suspension you have problems going on that you won't know about until it is far too late to recover from. Or problems that don't surface very often and only show up under a certain set of parameters. On that note... are you willing to go against manufacterers warning on a part that is vital to you keeping your car on the road/track?
My thing with suspension is similar to my opinion on engine parts. There are alot of people that fancy themselves are car enthusiests... but remember engineers are engineers and hobbiests are just that... The people that get involved with r&d and product development with suspension, brakes and engine parts are very well trained... very well paid and are trusted to make decisions that will affect many thousands of motorists traveling on the highways and byways traveling safley through variable conditions or traveling at maximum speed as safe as possible on the track...
either way... i trust them more then i trust any fly by night... or even local mechanic/aftermarket parts installer...
in short... it's all about the research.
You're right, I was splitting hairs on the issue of the unsprung weight, but I was just following the explanation presented earlier in this thread on how the FSD technology works. It was mentioned that the unsprung weight played a role in the correct operation of the FSDs. So if we don't agree that unsprung weight is of significant concern why should ride height be a concern? Because KONI says so, thats why, is the concensus at this point. No one has presented any arguement, explanation or proof to the contrarary. I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just asking the obvious questions.
So please don't pay me any attention I'm just some idiot with lowered springs and FSDs...
I was afraid someone would take my rhetorical questions a little too literally.
You're right, I was splitting hairs on the issue of the unsprung weight, but I was just following the explanation presented earlier in this thread on how the FSD technology works. It was mentioned that the unsprung weight played a role in the correct operation of the FSDs. So if we don't agree that unsprung weight is of significant concern why should ride height be a concern? Because KONI says so, thats why, is the concensus at this point. No one has presented any arguement, explanation or proof to the contrarary. I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just asking the obvious questions.
So please don't pay me any attention I'm just some idiot with lowered springs and FSDs...
You're right, I was splitting hairs on the issue of the unsprung weight, but I was just following the explanation presented earlier in this thread on how the FSD technology works. It was mentioned that the unsprung weight played a role in the correct operation of the FSDs. So if we don't agree that unsprung weight is of significant concern why should ride height be a concern? Because KONI says so, thats why, is the concensus at this point. No one has presented any arguement, explanation or proof to the contrarary. I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just asking the obvious questions.
So please don't pay me any attention I'm just some idiot with lowered springs and FSDs...
your thoughts are valid and i guess i just posted my rhetorical questions to your rhetorical questions, which doesn't help the discussion that much lol.
But in all seriousness. The doc said it best here. The issue of weighting is something that should be looked at. If it's so much of a problem with ride hight how come a weight disclaimer isn't on that box as well.
Overall I'm glad this stuff works for you guys. I mean we are probobly only talking about 1" worth of drop on the fsd with most cases. Heck even my favorite tuner shop, which i like to support becuase i know him personally and he is always eager to do what he can, installs these with lowering springs for people at their request... all be it with a little disclaimer.
the fact of the matter is it's your car and your money... do what you please with it that you think works and is safe for you. However, this discussion does leave enough concerns in my head that i will steer clear of fsd's with lowering springs based off my own research.
That doesn't mean you're wrong for using them and your opinion here is as valid or more valid then mine becuase you have first hand experience.
gl
I spent a little more time thinking about this one...
and it has the smell of the crank pulley debate. That one went..
"It's a bad idea, in general, to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But the Mini engine is compact, and even the engineers added the dampener not for bearing life, but for NVH and belt slap issues with the accessory drive."
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But lots of people have done it on similar (very short block) engines with no trouble"
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
And this went on forever until people had logged enough miles to see it's not that big a deal (ulness you get one that wasn't made to tight tolerance, so it came off, or if you spun your motor to ungodly high RPMs).
I'm betting that this will come out a lot like the harmonic dampener. I'm sure that there will be some effect to strut operation as a fucntion of lowering, but it will probably still result in a better driving experience than the set up before, and who knows about long term lifetimes, but it seems this has been done on enought sets of FDSs to know it's not a killer short term problem.
Only time will tell.
Matt
"It's a bad idea, in general, to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But the Mini engine is compact, and even the engineers added the dampener not for bearing life, but for NVH and belt slap issues with the accessory drive."
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But lots of people have done it on similar (very short block) engines with no trouble"
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
And this went on forever until people had logged enough miles to see it's not that big a deal (ulness you get one that wasn't made to tight tolerance, so it came off, or if you spun your motor to ungodly high RPMs).
I'm betting that this will come out a lot like the harmonic dampener. I'm sure that there will be some effect to strut operation as a fucntion of lowering, but it will probably still result in a better driving experience than the set up before, and who knows about long term lifetimes, but it seems this has been done on enought sets of FDSs to know it's not a killer short term problem.
Only time will tell.
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
and it has the smell of the crank pulley debate. That one went..
"It's a bad idea, in general, to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But the Mini engine is compact, and even the engineers added the dampener not for bearing life, but for NVH and belt slap issues with the accessory drive."
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But lots of people have done it on similar (very short block) engines with no trouble"
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
And this went on forever until people had logged enough miles to see it's not that big a deal (ulness you get one that wasn't made to tight tolerance, so it came off, or if you spun your motor to ungodly high RPMs).
I'm betting that this will come out a lot like the harmonic dampener. I'm sure that there will be some effect to strut operation as a fucntion of lowering, but it will probably still result in a better driving experience than the set up before, and who knows about long term lifetimes, but it seems this has been done on enought sets of FDSs to know it's not a killer short term problem. [Emphasis added.]
Only time will tell.
Matt
"It's a bad idea, in general, to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But the Mini engine is compact, and even the engineers added the dampener not for bearing life, but for NVH and belt slap issues with the accessory drive."
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
"But lots of people have done it on similar (very short block) engines with no trouble"
"But it's a bad idea to run without a harmonic dampener"
And this went on forever until people had logged enough miles to see it's not that big a deal (ulness you get one that wasn't made to tight tolerance, so it came off, or if you spun your motor to ungodly high RPMs).
I'm betting that this will come out a lot like the harmonic dampener. I'm sure that there will be some effect to strut operation as a fucntion of lowering, but it will probably still result in a better driving experience than the set up before, and who knows about long term lifetimes, but it seems this has been done on enought sets of FDSs to know it's not a killer short term problem. [Emphasis added.]
Only time will tell.
Matt
4th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 364
Likes: 18
From: Ha No Loo Loo
... they play well with OEM shocks/struts, Koni Yellows, Koni FSD's and Bilstein SP's.
Have you done any testing with the FSDs? I just bought a set of your springs and was considering the FSDs ... until I read this thread!
4th Gear
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 353
Likes: 0
From: Hollis, NH
I noticed that on the TSW MINI Performance Springs page on your web site, it says the following:
... they play well with OEM shocks/struts, Koni Yellows, Koni FSD's and Bilstein SP's.
Have you done any testing with the FSDs? I just bought a set of your springs and was considering the FSDs ... until I read this thread!Ultimately, it's your decision. I had issues with this setup and Koni recommends against it. Best case, you'll love it... Others seem to like the combination. Worst case, you won't like it or will experience difficulties with it and you'll have to sell the shocks and possibly the springs and you'll waste a bunch of money and time and will have to go with something else.
For me, I won't do the mix-and-match route, again. Matched shocks and springs that were designed to work together, specifically, sold be a single vendor or coilovers is my suggestion.
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: Florida
I recently have had the FSDs installed with the stock springs on my very lightly optioned non-S and my ride height is noticeable higher, maybe by one-half inch. I'm fine with this and do not plan to go to the added expense of new springs, plus installation, but I would think that the JCW springs would bring my ride back to stock height.
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Did you have issues specifically with the combination of TSW springs and FSD shocks? If so, what did you experience?
I could use your input as I have been considering this combination. Thanks!
I could use your input as I have been considering this combination. Thanks!
3rd Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
From: San Diego CA
I have Koni FSDs and TSW springs with IE fixed camber plates (wish I had bought the adjustables!) and adjustable rear control arms. I have not had any problems whatsoever and the ride is a big improvement over stock. I tried several times to contact Koni to talk to them about their warning about using the FSDs with lowering springs and can't get a straight answer out of them what the minimal effective travel is for the FSDs. With the TSW springs I'm sitting about 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch lower than stock. The only comment I have been able to get out of Koni is that if the lowering springs were affecting the FSD function you would be able to feel it. The ride would be very harsh and unforgiving.
Coordinator :: Manitoba MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
From: Winnipeg, MB
Okay - I've read through as much of the *ahem*:impatient opinions that I can take ! LOL!!!
Please - anyone who autocrosses their MINI with their car lowered 1" or less (like mine) what shocks do you run? And are you happy with them?
Grassya$$
B
Please - anyone who autocrosses their MINI with their car lowered 1" or less (like mine) what shocks do you run? And are you happy with them?
Grassya$$
B
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