I understand your post but not this quoted part. If you leave the upper adjustable control arm at stock length, then what's the point of having it adjustable? Why not just leave the stock arm there? (other than weight and strength of course.) I just can't believe that you would put two adjustable links on a 3-point rear suspension system if you then would not take advantage of the adjustability and adjust both toe and camber using both adjustable links. It's like optimization in mathematics to me...but maybe physics and suspension are only tangentially related.

cheers,

 

Other than changing track width or relieving torsional forces from the arms when the suspension is static, there is none. The main reason is to get increased bushing durometer to control toe and camber under load.

The math and geometry of it is why I left one set at a fixed legnth. It is difficult to explain in a post, but the short answer is that the control arm length will be changed unevenly when using them to adjust toe. This means that even if track width is right and the thrust angle is at 0, you could still have one wheel that is further away from the centerline than the other.

Again this is the quickest way for me to explain it. use a trapazoid to model the rear suspension points and play with the relationships of center line, toe angle and control arm length.

The easiest way to answer is what are you trying to achieve by using the adjuster?

 

...changing track will affect the camber curve. I have not bothered for all the reasons 002 points to. However, there may be an opportunity hidden in the geometry that permits a better compromise for a given set up. But then, one would need to incorporate roll rate and total roll to find out what camber actually does.

I ended my suspension saga by removing all four arms. I re-adjusted these to stock length. I brought the car to a local shop and the fellow performing the work was at one time a pro race car driver. He understood the importance behind leaving the upper links at the stock length. Camber was adjusted via the two lower links and toe was adjusted using the stock method. This method works very well.

 

Although it seems redundant to replace the top links with adjustable ones and set to stock length, the real advantage comes from a firmer pivot mechanism. After using poly for a long time I feel something solid like Hiem joints or pillow ***** is the best way to go for increasing stability. I don’t know what the service life of my pillow ball pivots will be in the long term but for now they don’t make noise and don’t affect ride quality, they do decrease understeer to a minor extent and the rear does behave more predictably during an avoidance maneuver. I’m now of the opinion if you’re going to change the links go all the way, do the lowers and uppers.

BTW, setting the top links to stock length does not guarantee proper track, but it’s a good start.

I’ve played with camber and toe some before having proper alignments; man, negative three degrees sure does stick.

 

Very good stuff, and contrary to what I've read in the past; but that's ok. The "consensus" was to tweak toe via the upper links, and not so with the trailing arms (there were some expressed concerns).

Before I go for my next alignment and tire replacement, I'll remove my top Alta control arms, and get them to factory length by matching them to the stock ones. I hope re-installing them won't be too difficult...

 

k-huevo: That neg three is on the front right? just making sure i understand what your saying.

And didnt replacing the uppers ones for toe come about pre 05? Am i wrong or could you not adjust toe on pre 05 cars or something like that? Or am i thinking of something different

Beecher

 

The negative three degrees camber was on the rear and it was just for fun, sort of. I’ve tried a range of rear camber and toe adjustments and that was an example of an extreme; I don’t recommend that setting. I’ve only tried a few alternative toe settings on the front, but for all settings I find the middle ground for stock specs the best street compromise.

Rear camber adjustment capability was introduced in late 04 builds by way of a quasi eccentric mechanism on the lower control arm.

All model years have rear toe adjustability via the slotted bolt holes on the trailing arm bracket. Depending on your build tolerances, a hair past neutral to about +.75 degrees is possible.

 

eccentric, not concentric. It offers very little adjustment compared to non-OEM control arms.

cheers,

 

The device description has been corrected, thank you. Today I have an excuse; I’m under the influence of boboso pills that make me act like an ithering blidiot.

 

Ok, tried to install the the lower control arms tonight and having a few issues, maybe someone can give me some advice.

The lower bolts, my brake line is in the way... Having a little trouble wiggling the bolt out. On the top, well, that's just a pain to begin with. Any tips on getting those bolts out?

 

Trying to visualize... I think you might be referring to the driver's side, and possibly the e-brake cable. I haven't been in that area for a while...

Are you on jack stands or wheel ramps?

If stands, try elevating the wheel with a the floor jack to see if that improves the angle. Also, try releasing the e-brake (if engaged), making sure the car won't take-off of course...

As a side note, it's fairly easy to strip these bolts. One might want to pick-up a few at their MINI dealership as a precaution. They're cheap insurance...

 

Thanks Tony. You're thinking of the right bolts! I did release the E-brake, but it's just about 1/8 short. I managed to just wiggle one bolt out, but the other one is just shy as well... Worried about getting it back into place. Then the upper bolt.. that's just a pain. Working with the 18mm and 1 inch ext and then a 18mm wrench working it out... I assume this is the only way?

 

You’re right, it’s not easy, and it will take some effort. Aligning the holes will require the jack, some tapping with a dead blow hammer, some forceful cajoling, and a few words of encouragement.

You can bend the e-brake cable tube a little to access the bolts. Some builds have a radical radius in the tube and it will benefit from bending it open just a little after you’re done thereby reducing brake drag.

 

My alignment shop folks used two guys to perform the rear toe adjustment.

K-huevo, do swearing count as "words of encouragement?" insert smile...where do those damn things go???

 

Lame question, which way do I bend it. I don't want it to snap off. This isn't the brake line itself? Doesn't see to have much plan in the connection to the caliper. I may be doing something wrong though. Had to stop last night as it was getting late. I should have started a little earlier in the night...

Edit - You pull the e-brake line away from the bolt and wiggle the bolt at the same time. it's tough, but don't give up.

As for the upper bolt- use the 1 inch ext and an 18 wrench (gear wrench) to remove the nut on the outside of the top bolt. Nice lesson. Don't worry, you won't break anything!

 

Just an update. Got the arms on tonight. Nice install in retro, all that I needed to do was man-up and muscle the bolts in question off. The 1 inch ext is needed for the install. It's a must. Also a 18mm gear ratch helps out as well.

I now need an alignment. I will do a search for rear camber settings for a good mix of street & canyon carving.

 

I got back from vacation and finally got my parts installed.

Here's what I have now, PSS9, 22 mm rear sway bar, Helix camber plates, H-Sport rear camber adustable arms, Helix stage 1 brake kit, brass caliper bushings, green brake pads, Stainless brake lines and blue brake fluid.
I installed everything on Saturday.
Now I will be going for alignment and use the car on the street about 500-800 miles per year and 2 track events just for fun, the non-passing kind but we ar grouped so nobody is actually holding you.
I was thinking of going with:
Front camber -2.1 (-2.1 to -2.5)
Rear Camber -1.6 ( -1.3 to -1.6)
Front toe + 1/16"
Rear toe zero but I'm not sure if it can be changed or not?I have been without a PC and have been away from NAM for the last month and I'm trying to find all the messages on alignment specs but they vary quite a bit and I'm not sure if these specs would be acceptable for my usage.

Tire wear is not an issue as I have 3 sets of wheel and tires and if I had to go on a long trip I would use the run-flats but that's not likely to happen.

Feel free to pitch in as I will be reading more posts on the alignment topic.
Thanks.

 

Hi All -

Here's a little explanation that might come in handy right about now...It does a good job explaining the major variables for those who are new to all this:

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

zrwon: I'm running a suspension/brake set-up that's very similar to yours and think it's a great improvement over stock, especially in the brake dept. If you track the car, you'll boil your brake fluid pretty fast with the stock fluid/setup.

 

I tried 3 alignment shops and none of them could do my car, I ended at the dealer and they did it for me, the problem is I gave them my specs but they didn't get to where I wanted on the rear axle.

Front is Camber -2 deg. 13' left and right are the same.
and front toe is 1 deg. 16' left and right.
I think that should be good.

Rear now, I asked for -1.6 deg. camber and about 0 toe.
but he told me he couldn't get any better than -2 deg. 01' on the left and -2 deg. 02' on the right.
Why does he say he can't do better than -2 deg. when it was -1 deg. 54' before?

 

zrwon: The dealer should have been able to get your rear camber and toe if you either have both upper and lower adjustable control arms, or he adjusted the trailing arm using the mounts at the body (3 large bolts.) It's harder using both control arms, but I eventually got my specs just right and zero thrust to boot!
good luck,

 

 

2 years later and less than 1000 miles and my GSC's are totally bald in the front, I guess the dealership didn't do a very good job, I did noticed the tires were squealing really bad on a concrete garage floor and the way they wore out is a good indication that something is totally wrong, the tread on the tires is worn with a slope as if it was dragging sideways, there is a sharp lip all along the threads, hard to explain but you can tell the whole surface is wearing evenly but the edges on all the grooves you can see a thin layer rolling upward and that is not a normal wear, not like a wheel spin either, more like way too much toe.

I have to go on Tuesday for a wheel alignment, I found another shop that claims they can do it. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, I have PSS9, larger rear sway bar, front camber plates and rear lower adjustable bar.
I was going to ask for: Front Camber -2 to -2.2 deg and 1/16" to 1/8" toe out.
And for the rear: Camber -1.5 to -1.6 degree and zero toe.

Would that be right?

 

I have the same set-up.
PSS9, Helix camber plates on the front, H-sport lower control arms on the back.
I also have the PSA from MM.
My car is a daily driver with frequent trips to the Nurburgring and other circuits. I would like an even tire wear in the front and back on daily driving. I have semi-slicks on the track and I don't care how the tires wears there.
Currently I have 1,2 neg on the front, more on the back with the stock control arms and lowered. The front as even tire wear because I also corner spirited in daily driving, the back wears unevenly.

What would be the best setting because I will have everything aligned after fitting the H-sport lower control arms.

I heard good stories about putting some toe-in on the front because the front wheels toe-out under heavy breaking and straight line stability would be better? But I read in the posted article that a bit of toe-out is better for front-wheel drive cars to induce a bit of oversteer to correct for the understeer tendency of front wheel drive cars.
I was also thinking of putting 1,5 deg. neg. camber on the front and back?

The car will also be weighed out to put an evenly distributed pressure on every wheel by adjusting height with the PSS9 coilovers.

 

The all NEW TSW rear control arms will be here next week, keep an eye out for more info, they will become the Next Standard in MINI Rear Arms.

 

is it also recommended to replace rear sway links to adjustables as well?

do the fronts have problems with camber such that adjustable control arms are needed?