While setting up cars is not new to me, my disappointing experience with setting up my Mini is...and I've no one to blame but me.

I thought this little story might helpfull to even the most experienced folks; we all occasionally rely on technicians from various parts of the tuning world to help us. Their level of pride and professionalism have much to do with the quality of the set-up...a no brainer, but humor me, this is part of my therapy

Before moving on, the quality of the components is not suspect here, only the set-up work performed.

The very first setup occured a few months back after installing the Megans. I brought the car to a very well known shop - known internationally - to align and corner balance my car. I gave the tech my alignment specs and my weight; 1.75 degrees neg camber up front 1/16" toe in, stock settings in the rear. I drove the car the next day at Lime Rock - a chilly 33 degree day. I blamed the somewhat disappointing handling on the temps. After driving for a week on familiar roads I began to wonder about the alignment, was it correct? The car really understeered in long generous fast sweepers, and I nearly lost the back end in a somewhat sharp turn. But it tracked stright ahead like nothing I've driven.

The corner balancing was spot on. But, the tech corner balanced the car on only one spring, and, adjusted with spring height instead of the ride height sleeve provided by the Megans. Toe in up front was set to nearly 1/2" and rear camber to 3 degrees neg. I reset all the springs and in the process destroyed my corner balancing.

Back to another alignment shop. These guys, who I've used for several years performed great in the past, but they do not corner balance. Their first mistake? They did not bother to use the ball end allen key I provided to adjust camber, they ground and tore the **** out of the strut towers in an effort to reach the adjustment allen screws. The alignment felt okay, but not great. I went back and asked them to repeat the alignment with all stock specs...the car felt worse, but I lived with it.

A couple weeks later, I brought the car to yet another shop who I've worked with as well. They're around the corner from my house, I was participating in a DE event at Lime rock again and thought that perhaps these guys would be better. The owner called and said my ride heights were all off. We talked about it for a while, but I explained very carefully how to adjust the Megans. I blew a bushing and a ball joint at Lime Rock so I blamed the poor showing on these components. These guys really screwed up the Megans.

I then brought the car to BMW/Mini to have every ball joint replaced and the Powerflex control arm bushings installed. I drove the car home and it pulled to the right after a sharp right hand turn...the steering would not return to center well. I brought it back and the tech said we have to set all specs to stock because my specs are causing the pull...whatever! The car still pulls to the right. Now, I asked the tech why the camber plates were adjusted visually 2 degrees different right to left. He said the Megan perches are off by that much ..what?

So, I decided to start over by beginning with some very careful measurments. The BMW/Mini alignment was poorly performed; the camber is nearly 2 degrees different right to left. The Megan perches are perfect. I then removed all four spring/dampers and I was blown away with what I saw; every spring height was different - a 1/2" left to right up front. Every damper height was different - this is possible if the techs do not pay attention to what moves and what doesn't while adjusting theses. So, I re-set it all.

Yesterday after the final re-install, the car still looked funny. I checked the length of all four rear control links. The left side rear camber link is 3/8" shorter than the right and the upper link is 1/4" shorter than its right side counter part. How the BMW/Mini tech arrived at a 0.01 degree thrust angle with these differences is beyond my understanding. These will be re-set tonight and the car aligned again - for the 6th time (not all were listed above).

The point? Adjustability is great if, the folks know what they're doing, and, if we check their work. I did not. April, May, June...the parts have been in place but it will have taken this long to get is right.

The Megans, Webb bar, Wilwood brakes and all the other components perform as promised...the setup work was flawed.

 

here's a stress ball for ya, meb.

 

I've always justified my complete lack of "modification ambition" by noting that basically anything you can adjust to make a car go faster can also make it go slower. I guess I can add to that: anything on a car that you can adjust - will also cost you money

Well, meb, think of it this way, this experience has probably made you one of the foremost alignment experts in the Mini community. Not that there's probably much solace in that.

 

I sympathize with you meb. It was your initial reaction to the Megans that got me all excited about doing the suspension on my car, and I waited long enough to pull the trigger that you had already headed down the weight balanced road, bumpy as it's been. I ended up going for the much less adjustable struts/coils and plates route, with less performance, but still a great improvement over stock. At one point, while following your saga on these pages, I thought that having lots of choices leads to lots of headaches--especially when the variables interact with each other in a very complex, dynamic, system. Given that I live in Hicksville (oops, Albuquerque I mean) I think that coilovers and weight balancing would completely overwhelm anyone in town with an alignment table...
Thanks for sharing the downside as much as the upside!

cheers, and good luck.

 

well, let's just say he went from a MINI dork to a super MINI dork.

 

I know you’re anxious about the upcoming track date meb, that’s got to compound your frustration. I may be over simplifying and off base but I’ll offer this up anyway. At this stage you probably understand the dynamics of adjustment with your set-up well enough to provide better guidance to the alignment tech next time, so you will both have a better advantage on the next attempt. You work with diagrams, perhaps put the information into hard copy drawings, I’ll bet the tech would appreciate that. Make time to be present during the alignment and a participant in the process.

This part doesn’t help you Michael, but for anyone in the state of Texas that wants to avoid meb's fate, it’s worthwhile to take the drive to North Austin and have the vehicle aligned by Bill Kim at SoulSpeed http://www.soulspeed.com/services/Prices.asp , Bill is an avid racer (he knows the outcomes), a Driver’s Edge instructor, and is highly conscientious when handling customer’s vehicles.

 

Well I certainly appreciate the comments. I surely cannot blame anyone but me.

Want to read about one more screw up? Sure? Okay. After I re-set all four links tonight, double checked all measurements, even waxed a few undercarriage parts to chill a bit , I decide to install the M7 USS - I had one nutsert left. The caveat here is never work on your car after work or when tired. I break that rule every time I play with the car so I deserve the next one too. I placed the USS under the car and hand tightened all four allen screws. I did not pay attention to where the long screws where and installed one in the short screw hole. I torqued it up against a screw threaded from the top of the subframe and broke it off in the hole. :impatient

I do bring these things on myself I must say. Well, the USS is hanging in my garage. I'll need to take a break from that thing for a while before attempting to tap that screw out...wonder if I dare hire a 'mechanic' Maybe I'll install a roll cage and be done with it...

So all is set; dampers are correct, springs are correct, control links are set...I need an alignment, a good one too.

Oh, one last item found tonight. Since the upper rear control links are very difficult to loosen and tighten - not lots of space - the last tech...perhaps all techs left these loose. That left the rod to rotate around the threads a bit in either direction in proportion to the deflection the outside poly bushing received. The inside bushings were doing little if anything. I tightened these. Argh!

If I may, I think the Megans are a wonderful value...a wonderful way to go in spite of the value for many folks. Megan users do need to be very clear, however, about what can go wrong - perhaps a picutre as K-huevo wrote - while adjusting these. We need to make sure techs really understand, but also, follows our lead. The principle behind the Megan system is incredibly simple, but also incredibly easy to screw up. I'll pull a Jackie Gleason if these are fooled with again...to the moon...

Over and out, time for a fine vintage Again, thank you for your support. Very much appreciated.

If the alignment is a good one, I'll clean the car, and take a picture of it with me so you can see the dork and his machine.

Michael

 

Meb--Where do you live? Are you close to NYC?
Setup is Precisions specialty. We use a Beissbarth alignment system with Long Acres scales. We don't dominate on the track with HP. None of our race cars in PCA Club Racing or BMWCR run adjustable dampers, only ride height adjustability. From years of racing bikes I have learned that shock/spring adjustability, if you do not have a shock dyno and engineer, is more than likely slowing you down as opposed to speeding you up.

 

im looking forward to it. thanks for sharing your issues.

we will invoice you for this shrink session approprieately.
good luck with your alignment.

 

I am 1.5 hours north of NYC...or one hour in the Mini - Fishkill/Wappinger Falls area. I ususally take the West Side Highway when going in. Where are you located?

 

in Califon, NJ. Interestingly, my wife is from Fishkill. Give us a call; we like talking setup.

 

I'll do just that, tomorrow. Thanks

 

So wait... this means the thing is finally almost set up right?

 

I know what you mean by taking brakes from working on cars, durring my build of my 40 ford coupe, i have had to take many of them, right now im in the middle of a rather lengthy one. I got the engine running earlier this year, the first time i ever heard my car car run, ran great the first day. Eventually foud out the wet spot on the floor was oil, not water from the pin hole in the rad, Oil pan leaks out of a weld someone put in it. Discovered a second pudle forming, oil leaking into the bell housing and out the drain hole in there (my fault admitidly, i put the pan on while the engine was in the car, big mistake). However, while i was checking to see if i had oil in bellhousing, i discovere the ear on my thoughout bearing hub for the return spring was broke off, as well as the cltuch fingers being way out of alignment (brand new clutch, should have been good, so i was told). The second day when i had it running i had adjusted the throttle linkage so the carbs opened up more, started it up, massive valve float in the area about where it stoped the day before cause the linkage was hitting my fuel pump. A bit later the started jamed up so tight i couldnt even get it out! This is the point i actually found out the hub was broke, so i started taking the motor apart so i could take it out to fix all the oil pan and clutch issues, when i discovered that a couple of my vavle springs that were tight the day before now float around loose, and you could open the valve by hand, hmm not good, so that where the float came from. That was about 4 weeks ago, havnt touched it since, still dont even want to look at it really. Earlier this year i vowed not to touch the mini until the 40 was running on the street. Now im doing stuff to the mini. Consensous is that the springs got bad heat treat, and that is why they changed their lenght (i had them all set up to the same seat pressure when i put them in, so they had to change length or change spring rate i guess). Just thought you should hear someone elses car problems to know your not alone. Some of tha was my fault (i should have checked the clutch fingers, and did a better job at putting the oil pan gasket in, even tho i covered it in sealer, i guess it wasnt good enough), but some things are just completely out of our control, and its good to keep that in mind while working on cars, especially to the extent that most of us work on our minis.

Beecher

 

Beecher,

There is somthing to be said for having the time, the proper place and the proper tools.

snid...we'll see I re-adjusted all but front toe last night. Despite front toe being off by a lot, the car feels better.

 

No kidding! I'm moving to Wappingers Falls tommorrow. Seriously. The house is right around the intersection of Lake Walton and Brown if I remember correctly. I think this is right on the border of Wappingers Falls and East Fishkill, and there seemed to be some debate about which "city" the house was actually in.

I'll be leaving MN Friday evening, and hopefully we'll show up at the place in WF sometime on Monday.

Maybe I can mooch your suspension knowledge I have a set of Koni FSD's that has been sitting in my garage, in their box, since like March.

-Roger, the laziest Mini owner on the planet.

 

...small world. Well then, I'll be able to throw a base ball at you as you drive by , you're very close...a mile or two.

PM me when you get settled and we'll get together. What brings you to cow tipping town? You can now join me at Lime Rock. It's 40 minutes from us...a rapid 40 though

 

Oh drat so does this mean there isnt a chance of you selling me the megan's dirt cheap seeing that there used =P

 

I'm moving for work. And what's interesting is that my good autocross buddy here in MN is moving to Torrington, CT, I think on July 1st.

We're both hoping to hit some track days at Lime Rock ASAP. We're also both really into autocross, so we'll be running lots of those, too.

I'll shoot you a PM once I'm ready to play cars. My Mini is being transported, though, so I might not have that back until July 10th or something.

 

...funny, I work in Bethel connecticut...I don't think torrington is close???

 

you got fat waitresses?

 

When you're both coming from Minnesota, it is

 

Just the type you like


I just picked up the car Everything is spot on, thrust angle is zero, but curiously, set back is a little large - 2/10"...perhaps a slight change to the subframe will help...those BMW guys may have done this when the removed and reinstalled the subframe...but then, I've seen cars off by that much from the factory. If I decide this is a problem, I'll address it another day. I'm just driving it for now. I am whole once a gain, thank God!

So, do I start a dork thread with my clean car and my picture...or I'll add it here?

Michael

 

lol!!

yes, let's keep going on this thread about your renewed MCS!
0.01 isn't THAT bad.... i mean, there's cars out there that are running
0.02 without knowing it.

so, does the car return straight after you corner hard?

 

It appears to be okay...but the roads I drive to work are the best indicators. I drove home and the car is sitting awaiting a brake repair...which I'm sure you've read about...

It does need another degree or so caster...to help compensate for some of the steering feel aggressive negative camber removes. Life aint' perfect though.