im only 20, and i dont believe that even with all the mods i did i have reach its limits... yet.... so some of these 'more experienced' folks do have a point.... at least you (ethereal) can tell at least they care to give you this advice.. if they didn't care they wouldn't even bother to give you advice! :smile:

there's one thing that even high performance driving school cannot teach you, and that's experience! the kid HAS to just sit behind the wheel, drive autox, drive track again and again, learn the car as he mods, as well going to high performance driving school...

i gotta say though, i do regret not doing track school earlier....

o yeah, fyi, do not go with sportline unless you want to break your lower back! i run pro-kit (softer setup) and i already think ride is pretty harsh.. also sportline lowers car about 1.5 inch all around.... tire selection can be pretty limited unless you just want rubbing!

 

I have a feeling your tone would change if you were an instructor.

Take my word for it - it's no fun to geth a n00b student with no car control skills and a modded car.

 

Hey, you're only 20 yrs old, I' am 53 and only made it to the track for the first time this year! Look at all of the time I've wasted!

Hey, watch the crotchety old man jokes. When I was 20 (or even 27) I drove some scary cars, lucky to have made it through that period unscathed.

 

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Roger that!

 

Excellent point. A student can be told all day long what understeer is but he will not understand until he experiences understeer. A stock Mini has a nice, safe amount of understeer, what a great car to learn in! And safely, too!

Some mods not only make the car more tricky to drive, some will actually make the car handle worse under any conditions. Make changes only when you understand what it is you're attempting to fix or improve. For example, I run less stiffness in the rear sway bar than I prefer because my wife drives the car sometimes. If you can tell me why less stiffness can be a good thing, you're ready for your first mod: a new sway bar! :smile:

I can relate to the desire to improve the car right away. Hey, I was young some years ago myself. Heck, you don't have to be young to have that impulse! But, you will learn more by following the advice in this thread. And you will end up being a better driver, too.

 

... I don't know. This is some of the silliest stuff I've heard in a while here.

I certainly am not saying that you all can't have your opinions as I have mine, but the reasoning behind them is void. Stock brakes not lasting more then a few laps??? I have never seen this, not even close.

Some of you sound like I recommended that this guy build a race car before he take HPDE when in fact I only said to go ahead with a pulley and a rear bar. Did someone say here that a rear bar will give all sorts of oversteer? That's very inaccurate to say the least.

If an instructor gets freaked out because someone is running a pulley and a rear bar, then maybe they need to rethink their hobby. The instructors job is to keep the driver in control while teaching the way around that track. Will 10 more hp and a neutral car make this task that much more difficult?

Thank god this young man didn't buy an STI, EVO or a 911! The instructors head might explode.

Some of you are so hung up on taking HPDE before mods that you are just using voided logic to back up your opinions.

ps. I have to add this. I am in no way saying that one shouldn't take the advise of some here that say you will learn more about handling in general if you use HPDE as a testing ground. But to add a rear bar and a pulley certainly will not hinder this learning process either as there are rear bar adjustments that can be made very easily that will teach you the same thing.

 

That IS a weird claim for sure. Someone was high when he claimed that the stock brakes last a few laps.



What I'm saying (can't speak for others) is this young fellow will benefit by driving the car stock so he knows, through experience, how the car works now, what understeer actually is. Then when he installs a better sway bar he will truly know what the value is. Good luck arguing against the logic of that.

Also, installing a pulley will void the engine warranty. Explain to me how 10hp is worth losing the warranty? Now who's using "void" logic, whatever that is.

 

There some logic for ya.... Are we on a whole nother topic now?

 

How will adding just camber plates to an SS+ suspension change the handling. It know it will help with front tire wear, but will it remove some understeer???

 

That was me, based on my experience. I've only done one track event, it was at Saint Lawrence Motorsports Park which is a 3/4 mile go kart track.

http://www.slmotorpark.com/

My brakes are stock except for Mintex Redbox pads on the back and Hawk HPS pads on the front. They were bedded according to the manufacturers instructions. On this track, my brake pads started to fade at around 4 laps.

So, I said something like "based on the track, you may only get a couple of laps out of stock brakes." Perhaps a little overstated, but on the track I was on, the stock brakes would not have lasted 4 laps.

And it wasn't just my lack of ability that caused it. One of the good drivers, who does some instruction, took my car out with me in it. Driving it smoothly and well below 10/10ths, he only got 4 or 5 laps out of the brakes, too.

So there.

 

Yes. It will remove a ton of oversteer, but it's better if a lower rear control arm is used with it. With these two things one can make the Mini soooo neutral and really begin to throttle steer to the max.

Also, I would never recommend buying special, or better tires for the track BEFORE camber plates and rear control arms as without these you will just eat up your investment in the tires.

 

It's "voided logic" ...and I have no idea what it means. It just popped into my head to fill some "voided" space.

 

hahaha, nah, no new topic. Guess I shouldn't have used the word "void" myself.

Ah, you mean brake fade, not "not last." Sorry, you imply the stock brakes aren't up to track time. They are fine for a track outting and fade is normal if you push the car. 95% of cars (stock) today will fade within a few laps. That does not mean there's anything wrong with them.

So there.

 

Since we're veering off-topic...

I though "not last" = "fade". But, I'm a newbie...

Are some people using "brakes not lasting" to mean the brake pads wearing down to metal? Sorry if I caused some confusion.

I'm using "fade" for when you get to the point where you get the wonderful brake smell inside the car and the brakes just don't want to stop as well anymore. As a newbie, I decided that was the sign that it was time for me to stop running around the track for a little while.

 

Well, I'm sort of yanking your chain. But to me, I would infer "not last' to mean "wear out quickly." So, not your fault! Even the best brakes can get stinky, certainly they get hot, so hot the rotors glow. It's hard for anything not to cook and stink at those temps.

Also, the more experience you have on the track you will find yourself relying less and less on the brakes. Seems backwards since you'd think more experience means faster and ='s more brake use. But if you think about it, brakes slow you down and to go fast you don't want to slow down any more than is necessary. Hence, less braking!

 

Maybe you guys didn't read the first page

I changed the fluid after experiencing fade on one of my favorate roads driving home from work. Long down hill descent, very hard on the brakes. Two track days so far and never a hint of fade.

 

Ok nevermind, i edited cause i had originally made it one very long post explaining things but i have nothing to prove.

Basically i think you overreacted, it's only a pulley, springs, and swaybar. Just a little faster and more neutral, nothing wrong with that.

Please... back to the topic of track suspension setups. :smile:

 

"What suspension setups would you track-experienced MINI owners recommend?"

1. You don't NEED to lower the car - the Stock SS suspension suits me fine
2. Start with new brake pads, new fluid and if you desire, progress to a Big Brake kit for the fronts
3. Front camber plates for negative camber up front
4. Rear lower control arms to get negative camber in the rear tires
5. new tires and lightweight wheels

Drive and Learn, HPDE with several instructors

 

I read it. Good call deleting it.

 

Me too, and I agree ...

 

Yeah i realized that it was stupid after i clicked 'submit post' which is why i edited it. . I think it's safe to say this thread is DONE.

BTW onasled i love your car and great videos.

 

I am interested in a suspension set up that is a good compromise between daily driver duty plus weekend track days on occaison. I have been reading/searching NAM, and I still have a few questions:

1. Lowering the Mini usually makes the camber go more negative. Are camber plates needed to get more negative camber, for even tire wear at the track? Or are they needed to get less negative camber, for even tire wear on the street? What are some camber settings that would be a good compromise?

2. H-Sport seems to be the most popular lowering spring here on NAM. However, softer front rates usually makes the car worse at turn in. Is there another spring set that will provide sharper turn-in response? Some say that the stiffer rear rates on the H-Sport allows for a more neutral handling car. Shouldn't that front/rear balance be tuned with sway bars rather than spring rates?

Thanks for any input.
matt

 

Brake fade will cause a hard pedal and boiling brake fluid will cause a soft pedal - or no pedal . Changing pads? Change the brake fluid too. FYI

 

1) Front end camber will not be bothered much by lowering...a little extra negative camber would have been desireable. So, you'll need camber plates of some kind to gain a litte extra negative camber - more cornering power...up to a point. Camber settings vary but should be based upon roll characteristics - spring and damping rates. The rear requires camber links...toe links if you want to save some weight and remove a little more compliance; both these come with stiffer bushings or hiem joints depending upon the manufacturer.

2) And right you are! Springs are the work horse of the suspension system. Dampers control the springs so should be chosen based upon spring rates. Sway bars - a horribly misleading name - should be used to tune balance (size ratio of front to rear bar),and, responsiveness (size of bars), not control roll. Buy a spring and damper combo from one manufacturer if you can afford this path. You will probably be much happier in the end. Mixing and match components can lead to lack luster results, though a few on NAM have used Bilstein/H&R, as one example, and are very very satisfied. Perform a search and PM those with different components. You'll get a good feel for what you're looking for soon enough.

I wouldn't gravitate to the H-Sports springs because of the light front rate as you state. The balance between their front and rear rates should make for a very entertaining car, however. That said, that combo might also make for a slightly less responsive car during the very first phase of a turn, afterwhich I would expect absolute neutrality. The caveat here, is, if you employe a heavy damping rate up front to compensate for what you feel is a light spring weight, the entire driving spectrum will feel sluggish; strong dampers do not allow light spring rates to return to mean quickly enough and this will pose a few handling challenges in say a very quick left/right autoX course.