I was thinking about getting a larger rear sway bar, but I saw some photos of me at Infineon with my inside real lifting a bit. So now I'm thinking of starting with camber plates. Any comments?

Thanks,

Matt

 

Actually on a FF car, the rear inside wheel lifting is not such a bad thing...but
to minimize sway, you're on the rigth track to get the stiffer sway bar.

If you change camber, you'll have more control as to which wheel gets
more traction, but in your case, you'll end up loosing traction if you
setup your inter rear wheel not to lift off the ground by adding more
positive camber to whatever negative you already have on the outside
rear wheel. This is why you want to stiffen the rear sway and add
grippier tires to match the new bar setting (if needed).

 

So you're talking about camber plates for the front instead of a rear swaybar, right?

I think that'd be an excellent idea. IMO, lack of front camber is *THE* problem with the Mini, and if I was going to modify mine (i'm an HS autocross nerd so I'm not going to any time soon), camber plates would be the first part I ordered.

 

There's a group buy on camber plates, so I'm using that as an excuse to start there. I'll see how much of the understeer I can get rid of with them. I'll keep you all posted......

matt

 

Getting RDR camber plates for the front will allow you to adjust negative camber only in the fronts. To adjust rear camber you will need adjustable lower control arms for the rear which add to the cost of suspension parts and still don't replace an adjustable rear sway bar.

So you get the RDR plates and set the front camber to what? Well usually one degree more negative than the rear. But without the rear control arms you cannot do much if the stock setting is already at -1.5 to -1.7 which it is sometimes. The other way to do it is to have both front and rear camber adjustable and pick the most negative you want in the front first, set the toe to 1/16" out and then set the rear to -1 degree less negative. Make the rear toe zero or 1/16" in and try it out. Should work on street or at autocross/track.

So how much front negative camber do you need? Depends on your wheels/tires and your use for the MINI. Street driving probably more like -2.0 degrees max, for autocross about -2.2 to -2.4 degrees if you can get that much (depends on your springs), for track -2.5 or more but that depends on your camber plates- some will give you more. The more negative the harder you can corner but the more you wear your inner wheel edge when street driving. Also the more twitchy the car can handle for street use.

Sometimes lifting of your rear inside wheel is due to too stiff a setting on the adjustable rear swaybar not too soft a setting. Depends how you drive and your suspension setup and alignment/ wheels etc. It's just a function of loosing traction and the car being unbalanced at that moment in the turn.

 

The inside rear will lift under hard cornering, but it's not significant. It's not contributing to traction. I have the three-way adjustable rear 22 mm swaybar from RDR set in the middle.It functions to eliminate understeer and thus balance the car neutrally. The RDR camber plates are very well made and I can adjust them easily. They go to about -2 negative. I run -1.5 on the street with no wear on the inside at all, and with just a bit more on the track I have worn out two sets of Azenis Sports with perfectly even wear across the whole set. They are rotated after each track day. Front camber will improve the handling and you will have faster cornering speeds.
The multilink rear is designed to go more negative under cornering and most of the track rats I know do not think the extra expense of adding adjustable links or lower control arms is worthwhile. I'm still trying to adjust the driver, so I suggest you invest in track time with a good DE instructor.

 

Hi all,

I went to 215-40 17s and the understeer is much less. I did get the camberplates in the group buy. But I haven't installed them yet. And I don't have a new swaybar yet. I figure I'll go with the camber plates and play around with the settings a bit. But I think the 40 series tires really help.

I've been playing with other parts of my car (MTH software, HAI, and a one-ball exhaust on Friday).

I'll put the camber plates on in the next month. I'm taking time off for a new baby!

Matt

 

A lifting wheel at any corner is an indication of too much roll stiffness. And as correctly pointed out above, four wheels aiding cornering is better than three. I've seen Porsches lifting front wheels off the ground due to too much front roll stiffness. There is an obvious balance for each of us. Your spring and damper rates come into play also; they affect roll stiffness and you should be selecting sway bar soze only after selecting spring and damper rates. Good luck!

 

I do not think lifting a rear inside wheel is an indication of too much stiffness. I had more lift of that wheel when I had the stock rear swaybar than when I ran with the larger bar.
The weight shift in a turn, especially in a front wheel drive car, puts almost all the turning force on the outside wheels. The outside front takes more than half of that because of the car's 60-40 front/rear balance. Under acceleration the weight shift will shift rearwards (thus unweighting the front a bit). Even if the inside rear is still 'on the track,' it is really not providing any substantial amount of grip.

 

Front camber is only a concern - not a problem, if you have the stock swaybars. I defintely wouldn't go as far to say it is the problem with the whole car. I'd give that title to the fabulous Siemens EMS2000 - but I digress... Ok ok, if I had to narrow the problem down to the suspension, then probably the rear swaybar would be the one thing to change.

Ok back to the thread: lifting the inside rear is pretty common for a front driver, as others have noted. Nothing to really worry about. As I said above, the 1st line of attack would be a stiffer rear swaybar. This flattens the car in the corners a bit, which allows the front tires to grip better, and also reduces the understeer of the factory tuning. One item, lots of benefits.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

nnn... not necessarily. A lifting wheel is contributed by many things, not
just roll stiffness or lack of.

And you would be selecting swaybar settings based not only on
spring and damp rates, but also tires (compound, width of tires, stiffness
of sidewalls) by how well it grips the surface.

 

I'd stand by my statement, at least as far as the handling goes (althought you can skip the last paragraph for a minor retraction). I don't know what the EMS200 thingy is And I drive a base Mini, so wheelspin is a minor issue at best If I had an S, I might feel the open diff was the problem.

I've autocrossed a LOT of cars, and I have yet to drive anything that is remotely sporty which sucks in sweepers as much as my HS Mini. My wifes 4 door Civic EX does sweepers better than the Mini, and it doesn't even have a rear swaybar.

Of course a rear swaybar would help the problem caused by the lack of camber (by reducing body roll and keeping the front tires flatter on the ground), but it doesn't address what I see as the real issue - no camber.

I think my car has enough swaybar , I have never driven any car that will slalom like my Mini (with more than one seat, that is). Even my 85 CRX Si, which was probably 500lbs lighter than my Mini, wouldn't slalom like the Mini does. I have plenty of autocross time in an Integra Type-R, and even that car doesn't slalom like a Mini. To me, the insane slalom ability of this car says it's doing okay in the swaybar department, at least for a stock suspension setup.

So the lack of sweeper ability combined with the insane slalom ability points me to the total lack of camber as the culprit.

I will say, in defense of the swaybar case, that I run some autocrosses with Ron S who is part of RDR, and he has told me (repeatedly) that he thinks the rear swaybar is the biggest issue, too. I don't follow the logic, but I'd have to assume he knows more about it than I do.

 

i agree with satay; limiting body roll is the secret to transitions; camber and relative front/rear traction is the secret to understeer/oversteer correction, done by camber adjustment among other things.

 

Too much roll stiffness CAN cause a wheel to lift. I did not mean to write that too much stiffness did indeed cause your rear wheel to lift...only that the potential exists.

Spring and damper rates should be selected before selecting sway bar size, this is a very important path, not vise versa. I've written in depth about this here before. Macro to micro. But again, so my suggestions aren't taken as a broad application, spring and damper rates should be chosen based upon your driving style. How much tire you choose to run also also plays a significant roll - no pun - in the complex scenario, very true.

And, my past GTI's and the first car I ever autocrossed way back in 1981, a Ford Fiesta, all cornered on three wheels. I still submit, however, cornering on four wheels is better. My really well set up 1999 Civic Si cornered on all four wheels, although, the inside rear wheel was barely touching terra firma. The civic was a great cornering machine, but as stated above, will not slalom like the Mini.

So, if you're suspension is stock, increase the size of your rear sway bar slightly and add a bit more negative camber...and perhaps a bit of toe-out if you don't mind a car that will wander a bit more on the highway.

Limiting body roll is not the secret, only part of the puzzle. Making changes in suspension geometry, roll stiffness, etc is like pulling a thread in a plaid shirt; one thing affects the next and so on and so forth. If we concentrate too much on roll stiffness, we philosophically begin to fix on roll stiffness as the 'problem'. I say to you good kind folk, think bigger. Balance, from my perspective, is more important because a balanced car is predictable...read, consistent.

 

These are some of the most thoughtful and detailed responses I have seen about handling. Just want to add that having the rear wheel touching the ground vs lifting becomes a transition issue. When the weight shifts as the car is turned out of the corner, perhaps into a rapid transition the other way, as in a slalom or an "S" curve, that wheel will be available for grip a fraction of a second sooner. Essentially keeping it lower will improve the balance and thus car control. I also agree about camber plates. I have the RDR plates and after the swaybar they are the most significant improvement I have had in handling.

 

I have a 65 Mustang convertable. After having a 5.0 efi/5speed combo put in, I started thinking about a suspension. When I did the suspension (check out www.griggsracing.com), I found the motor was shot (long story there). So I upgraded power and suspension at the same time.

I now run over 350 HP with the car, and front spring rates went down from 610 lb/in to around 400. The rears went from 4 leaf rears to softer as well.

I can also go around corners like never before, and put down power like never before. So I have softer springs, and better handling. I don't know if the sway bars are more or less effective, the design is rather different.

I spent a bunch of time talking to Bruce Griggs, and now I'm a believer in proper geometry first, tuning the rest after. I"m not gonna cut up this car like I did the Mustang, so I's stuck with the stock pick-up points. (this is a much better starting point than a 65 Mustang!) Since I trash the outside of the front tires, adding a rear sway bar will just make that worse, even if I can corner better! Seems to me the camber is to little for a little car with so much weight over the front end, driving the way I do, living in the hills I do. If I add air to the fronts, a increase understear, not decrease it. This means more air in the front to counteract the roll in the tire during cornering is out as well.

There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Just going to the 40 series tire made a difference. I'm still killing the outside fronts. A bit more camber should help with the wear as well. Who knows, maybe the camber plates and the 40 series with stock sway bars will get me close to neutral.

Anyone out there with that combination who can comment?

Matt

 

Here's a photo of my Mini doing it.

I have a Mini-Madness 22mm rear bar, Spax coil-overs, K-mac front camber plates, H-sport rear arms. I think it's just the nature of front wheel drive.

 

I've got the H Sport Competition bar, on the middle setting, and mine does it too.

 

I've seen rear wheel drive BMWs race cars have rear wheel lifting due to braking on the end of the straightaway at Lime Rock going into Big Bend. Weight transfer.

 

I guess it's just the nature of the beast! Anyway, those are pretty bitchen' photos!

Matt

 

It seems to me that, while having the outside rear wheel lift isn't ideal, there's really very little difference between that and having it on the ground, spinning, but only carrying a few pounds of weight. It's just that it looks a lot more dramatic hainging in the air like that. Isn't it true that no matter what you do that wheel is going to have very little load on it and therefore won't be contributing much to handling?

Mark

 

I have the 22mm 3 way adjustable rear swaybar, K-Mack front camber plates and solid rear camber bars on my 03 MCS/JCW, I also lift the inside rear in hard cornering but I use the rear bar adjustments for rotation not the actual sway or body roll and in truth this is what you should use it for :smile: I can rotate like a rwd car if needed on any particular course, I run ASP/STU and on the street tires it really helps keep the car flat, once the Hoosiers go on then a little more lift is achieved from the grip of the 215-45-16s I corded these in the last event and have 225-50-16 avons on order has anyone ran these yet?

 

I'm not a suspension expert, but in my opinion I think the rear swaybar has little to do with the rear wheel lifting. If you think about it the wheel is lifting under braking and cornering, which means the weight is being transferred to the front outside wheel. So it seems to me to solve this problem you should stiffen up the front suspension, either stiffer springs, or a bigger front swaybar depending on what handling characteristics you want the car to have. I think by stiffening up the front end of the car it will allow less weight to transfer from the rear to the front under braking and stop the rear inside wheel from lifting.

 

It is a little more complex than that, if you will scroll back up and look at the cool pics you will see that the wheel is up in the opening, the stiffer rear bar is keeping the suspension from fully extending at this point because the other rear wheel is tied to it through the stiffer, read: (less flexing) sway bar and yes the weight transfer is also a factor but not really corrected by stiffining the front bar. Mabe tuning with shocks and springs but as I stated earlier I actully induce this for rotation so the rear doesnt simply follow the front

 

Go to any SCCA race and watch the fwd cars go through the turns--they all lift a wheel. If they're not, they're not going fast enough, at least on a road course.