minihune - - -

Thank you - you’ve cleared up a lot of gray areas for me, but it opens yet another question for me:

How does doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the stiffness of the sway bar relate to cancellation of the inherent understeer? My only other contemplated suspension change is going to an H-Sport coil spring set (#19800).

I’d prefer to not buy the sport bar and find that there is still a lot of understeer on the stiff position, or buy the competition bar and find that the softest position makes the tail get too twitchy.

The car is strictly a “toy” - - mostly driven aggressively in the twisties, never tracked or auto-Xed. What are your recommendations?

 

OK, I've read your past posts and have an idea of your MINI and your intended use (spirited street driving).
You have a CR/W MCS with 17" stock wheels.
You're thinking of adding H-sport springs, you want near neutral handling with minimal understeer. You don't have plans for rear lower adjustable control arms (which help to adjust rear negative camber after you lower your car).

For the rear swaybar if all other suspension options are equal the more stiff the bar the less understeer up to a point. Once you get too stiff then you will find that the car doesn't handle as well for you. That is why having three settings is helpful. The stiffest setting is not always the best one. It depends on your driving style and the rest of your suspension set up, your camber, your wheels and tires, the course, etc.

So in your case if you decide to add the H-sport springs I would recommend looking at the Mini-Madness 22mm rear bar and start with the softest setting and that will probably work for you. After you add the springs see how your MINI drives and if the rear negative camber of about -2 degrees is OK for you then just leave it alone and drive it without needing an alignment but do rotate your tires every 3000 miles to help the wear to be even. If you lack the adjustable rear lower control arms you cannot make the negative camber any less to smooth out your ride. But the control arms are not always needed. The stock settings for rear camber is from -1.0 to -2.0 degrees.

You can talk to Randy Webb at webbmotorsports.com since he sells many types of rear swaybars and springs and see what he says about the various combinations.

 

At this point, for those of you such as Nick with "why" questions, I would recommend the book "How to Make Your Car Handle." This describes the theories, concepts and how the components interact.

Most folks accept the fact that a stiffer rear bar reduces understeer without trying to reason it all out. Other folks need to satisfy these questions in their mind. For the latter group, the book is your answer.

 

Is this book relatively new, easy to find, etc ??

I'm one of those people who is intrigued by the details.

BB

 

Couple of seconds on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...446083-3419228

 

Thanks for the informative response.

You’ve hit the nail on the head except the wheels are Kosei 17”.

I’ll be contacting Randy Webb about suspension and brake ideas.



Thanks for the pointer to the book.

 

No the book is not new. On the contrary it has been around for 20 years or more. But, since it deals with theory and concepts it is sort of like a physics or math book. These things just don't change.

As pointed out by another poster, you can get a copy at Amazon for less than $10 plus shipping.

Enjoy,

 

after reading this thread, I'm more than convinced that this will be one of the first mods I will do once I get my MCS... however, is this mod something that can be done by yourself? how difficult is it to do this mod with just your basic tools (and I guess, jackstands as well)? thanks. oh, also, if everything was stock, wouldn't the middle setting be more appropriate? (on the 3 hole MM sway bar)

 

Check the forums on Randy's web site, he has a section of "how to's". I followed his write up for the sway bar and everything has been just great. I did mine a year ago and have not moved it off of the softest setting. I drive an '02 MC with the standard MC suspension.

The difference between the standard MC sway bar and the MM 3-hole on the softest of 3 setting is unbelievable. Night and day, I will need to drive a standard MC again just to see what the difference is again.

Now I need to look into H-Sport or H&R springs.

 

I keep saying, "This is the last mod I want" and then......... This thread has convinced me that I need to stop thinking about a sway bar.........and just get
one! I enjoy spirited daily driving and it appears this is an upgrade that will
significantly improve my driving pleasure. Think I'll make an appointment at Helix.

 

It was the first mod I made and love it.....

 

Could someone help me understand understeer a bit better. My current knowledge of understeer is just that the car is turning wider than the driver intends because the front end is loosing traction?

How does a rear sway bar affect understeer?

 

bump

 

I'm looking for information on the Eibach sway bars. Anyone out there have these on their MCS? If so, what are your thoughts on the Eibachs? Please share. Thanks!

 

Here is a short write up, for great write, one of the best that I have seen, check out this http://www.grmotorsports.com/swaybars.html

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This is an informative thread! One person mentioned the H&R 2 point swaybar. I just won one from Octcooperfest in NJ, it has no instructions, no other pieces besides the swaybar itself, and I have no idea how thick it is or if it is something I should consider putting on my car. Any help?

mb

 

Hey MBCOOPS,

There is a thread here at NAM from Randy Webb that shows the install for an Alta Sway Bar, but the instructions can be used for any sway Bar. You can also check his website for the same "How To".

BB

 

THis post, IMHO, does a great job of finishing your first very informative post.

FWIW, I plan to go with a 19mm Rear bar on a 06 MCS for street and very occasional AutoCross (gave up caring about classing a LONG time ago! .

In the past i have dealt with rear sways that are just too big, and for my limited driving skill, it's just not any fun to be worried about a car always coming around. For those who have more skill than myself, the larger bars may be the ticket. I am looking to just take out a little of the understeer and bring it close to neutral...but still remain safe & fun!

FWIW, i have a 97 subaru outback as a winter beater. Just adding a stock WRX rear sway bar was enough to tighten the car up a little, and take care of *most* of the silly understeer it had. Still nowhere near close to oversteer, just a little more enjoyable.

-jac

 

There are Many, Many threads on this subject. When I first started reading them I started to get worried about alarmist stuff about oversteer. If you dont know how to handle the rear end coming around, then stay safe.

After awhile I figured out that the best thing to do was to listen to the people who really knew what they were talking about ... I followed the advice of many people here and that of a local MINI racing shop AND RANDY. Went with the H comp 25.5 mm bar on soft setting.

I was first worried about my wife driving with it but she said it was nothing (used to driving mid-engined sports cars ... no big deal). In fact, the "experts" were right. It still gives mild oversteer. I don't think a 19"mm bar on any setting will get close to neutral.

 

A problem arises nonetheless when discussing swaybar size and nothing else. A 25.5mm rear is a big rear bar and under some circumstances with an otherwisw stock set-up, will not contribute to being the fastest or safest way around some tracks or streets. I can imagine that a 25.5mm rear bar is an absolute hoot on an autoX course.

That said, a 19mm bar with a proper set-up under some circumstances might be faster and safer.

Swaybars contribute to wheel rate and therefore must have a relationship with the springs and dampers being used.

 

I had a 22mm, 3 hole rear swaybar installed last winter, replacing the stock one on my MC. While at the Dragon last Oct. ['04], I noticed I was all over the place and that's what precipitated my move to a stiffer bar [my new one is set on the second hole]. Do they work? Well, as I was headed to the Dragon this past May some guy in a ricer was a tad too close as we were going thru the twisties just south of Maryville, TN, on US 129. I wasn't hitting the brakes much as we swept thru the curves on the wet road. He was right on my tail pretty much of the time until we hit a fairly curvy stretch right before that long straight [along those reservoirs] at the edge of the Dragoon. The last time I saw the ricer was when I was rounding a curve and [through my rearview mirror] saw him go thru it and up the bank on the other side of the road, as the line of MINIs/Minis behind me scrambled to get out of his way. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the performance of my swaybar....

 

Yes, but still an anecdote...based upon what criteria? You beat a ricer, okay nice.

Now put yourself on a track in the middle of a pack, the pace catapillaring into and out of turns causing you to hammer the brakes and throttle, upsetting your cars balance and momentum.

The only way to know how a 'bar' really works is thru repeated testing at the absolute limit. Thta's another way of writing, you'll only know when too much bar is bad is at the limit...and then it's too late.

I'm not picking on you, but anything other than pure testing is anecdotal. Rotation is good up to a point, afterwhich understeer is helpful. Most folks do not work with a car. Rather, they fight it. When they fight understeer, they figure a larger rear bar will bend them into a turn faster. Transitional behavior is extremely important; too much rear bar will affect how the polar moment acts on the mass centroid axis which in turn can cause secondary forces to come into play and then yer into the weeds backwards. That ain't fast.

...I have a very fast ricer...

 

what i dont understand is - after fitting a rear sway bar, why would a person get end drop links? arent the stock ones good enough?? can someone shed some light??

 

Webb just posted this. Might interest some:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...767#post693767

 

I got an Alta 22mm on sale for 145 shiped from World One Performance. They had it to my doorstep within 3 days and they had incredible customer service.