Sorry to resurrect this thread but I just installed the M7 USS on a R56 and the character of the car's handling seems to have changed.

The pros: The car feels like it tracks more accurately and the turn in is much more precise. Also, the car just feels more connected.

The cons: lots more NVH is transmitted into the car and it feels harsh on many surfaces except the smoothest.

I may disconnect the front bar on the street and connect it for the track.

 

DST,
Where I agree modern production cars are so stiff compared to the older pre-cad cars, I disagree why I would use one. For track, I would weld the daylights of the subframe and roll-cage. I would weld in bracing. Same for strut towers. No help on street cars with rubber bushings in the suspension, and a race car would be all welded with tubing anyway. Just my two cents.

It was not always that way. My 79 WV was so floppy it scraped the paint off the edge of the hood. A lot of these braces were developed back in the Rabbit GTI days. You could tell the difference on the street. Cars are a LOT stiffer now.

However, stiff is not always best. Morgans have amazed people for years as why they are so stinking fast with a wet noodle for a chassis and the concept of "suspension" had not been explored.

 

Is stiff better for the Mini, I would say yes but only for handling, not for comfort.

Every new generation of the car model, the manufacturers seem to say they stiffened the chasis x% more. If it is so stiff, why do they bother?

Try it, you might think different. It may be stiff but I am saying there some differences when you put it on.

 

Sling, I agree with the "every generation". The big changes happened first when we went unibody, and then as the advanced CAD simulations for crash structure started. Within the last ten years, probably not that much.

We used to measure torsional rigidy in Lbs per degree. The TVR was outstanding for it's time as it was about 400, where the TR6 was about 50. Modern unibody cars are in the 3000 range. If you are old enough, you will remember we could not open a car door with one wheel jacked up. Now when I work even on my 98 Civic, I only jack at one point on a side. Both wheels come up.

My point is that for a street car, where we have rubber mounts on the subframes, suspension arms, rack and so on, then this is not where to look first to get substantial improvements. The chassis is already stiffer than the suspension. For full race, of course. Different story, different margins.

To consider: Any of these add-on stiffining devices for any production car has not been evaluated for affect on collision. With the designed crumple zones, what do various mods do? If the engine is designed to go down ( most are), and you change the sub-frame mount design, does it help, or does it help put the engine in your lap?

OK, I can see it comming. Part-time, weekend track, autocrosser. You will put up with the NVH. You will put up with all the little things falling off the car due to the NVH. Guilty in the past myself. What is the best way to spend $500? A part? A tire? No, a driving lesson. It can drop seconds from laps, where parts can drop hundredths.

Be aware of subjective evaluations. It is very difficult. If you believe a change will make a difference, it almost always will. My other hogby is speaker design. If you want to pick a fight, get into those forums and discuss subjective vs measurement of amplifiers. This is just how all of our brains work. Unless you have a clear defect that comes or goes, small changes on a scale are just not accurately measurable by mere mortals. (Shocks with 30 clicks for street use? Yea right. 5 would do.)

 

Yes you are right about subjective evaluations. I think I would have to know the source of the information before I will consider anything.

Most cars are compromises at best so is the Mini. All I said it that to me the car seems more connected with the M7 USS and turn it is better for me and there is more NVH.

Your "opinion" is not based on experience with any of the two products available but quotes that cars are manufactured better these days. Be aware that "never tried it" opinions are even more difficult.

I have 25 track days already on just my Mini and many more on other cars such as 997s, 987s and Lotuses, Vipers including open wheels so far. So I hope I am perhaps a little more atuned to some of the suspension nuances. I think I have spent much more that $500 on lessons.

I do not know what fully measurable proof you have that all the poly stuff works other than subjective evaluations as well.

 

Experienced on track, then you know the value of instruction. As I said, TRACK is a different issue than street. I would not go half way on track, but get out the welder and do it right provided the class spec allows it. (Or you are good at "creative design")

About ten years ago, there was a published test of many "traditional" and many modern cars with respect to measured torsional rigidity. Real numbers. Not subjective. Wish I still had it. Quite informative.

I tried various suspension braces on an RSX. Upper and lower, rear lower (Progress) and my own rear upper. On street tires, streetable ( KW) coilovers, I could not feel any difference. Took them all off to save weight.

I do not know what statement I made suggesting Polly is "better". Compliant bushings, are more suitable to the street. NVH bothers more than just your tail, it can shake a car apart. Again, not a concern on a track car. I have had soft, hard, poly,Delrin, Teflon, and solid bearings in and out of various cars. Each has it's place.

I don't track or autocross anymore. Last autocrosser was another wet noodle: Spitfire.

 

Lets talk Minis please. Afterall, this is a Mini forum. I know absolutely nothing about bracing in the Acura RSX.

The NVH is not serve enough to shake much off. But it is there and if you were bothered by this, do not bother adding the braces.

I have tried just the front strut bar and found that not too be too useful and cannot feel much difference. But there are those that think it makes a great difference.

I actually agree fully with your comment that many people could do better with a little track instruction.

 

A USS system works wonders on the Cabriolet. Makes it a significantly better car. They should be put on at the factory. The benefits for the hardtop will be less, but still noticable. Go for it.

 

Well, I did manage to bring this to Monticello for a few sessions. Not my best day on the track but I managed to drive home w/o incident.

It seems to provide better stiffness to the frame. But it does expose weaknesses in the stock springs and shocks. Too much roll and slow response...

 

Yeah, your drive home was without incident, but your drive on the track wasn't exactly incident free, now was it? Really glad you didn't come close to hitting anything but dirt and grass. I couldn't pass up this opportunity, as it will be at least another 10 years before you spin again!