Doc,

What about a 2 pronged sandwich approach to the potential issue, using both camber plates and a strut tower top plate?

 

Should I throw my M7 plates away and get the Craven ones?

 

to know about the "two pronged (layered?) approach", you'd have to look at the outlines of the camber plate and the upper plate to know for sure... Couldn't hurt....

And no, I wouldn't throw one plate away to get another. Even if there is a difference between the two, you may be approaching the point of diminishing returns....

Maybe not, I don't really know. But it's money that you could be spending on track time....

Matt

 

I just got contacted from Kellen at Cravenspeed and apparently, they went through their stock much quickly than they anticipated so they are out of stock until May 8th.

seems like everybody wants Craven plates.

i wonder if Outmotoring has them in stock... but then I want them in red so.. I guess I'll just wait...

 

Try:

http://www.minspeed.net/R53STP.htm

Minspeed has them featured, don't know if they are in stock or not, but it's a good place to buy stuff from.

Just noticed you want red....probably have to wait.

 

god, the minspeed website has so much goodies! drool...

 

What's the word on the Dinan camber plates?

 

Curious reading about all the damaged towers but no mention of broken the strut top mount? Before the strut tower can be damaged or “mushroomed” you would break the strut top mount. The rattling of the strut and slight loss in handling would be evident in most cases to warn of something a miss before you would mushroom a strut tower. Also the strut towers are not perfectly flat, as you would think. A stop at a local dealership and looking at new Minis will show that they all seem to have a slight roundness to them.

The M7 is a good partial start to help if you do break the strut top mount but the combo of a camber plate and M7 or Craven would be the best protection. Or consider just going with a good set of coilovers .

 

I have M7 top plates and Ireland fixed camber plates and my car is perfect even after a winter of disgusting pot-holed New England roads... I do use snow tires in winter vs summer tires (16 vs 17") but I believe those bits help plus the camber change is fun.

FYI on my very first service visit, the tech saw the M7 plates and first comment out of his mouth was 'Good Idea' and then more about how lots of folks around here are using them.

I'd be curious why/if Craven plates are better.

 

but I think they add less negative camber than the IE plates.

Matt

 

Here's my guess, if someone who knows for sure and wants to correct me, please do.

I noticed when I installed my M7 plates that they did not fit exactly flat across the top of the strut towers. I suppose this could be due to a very small amount of exactly equal mushrooming on both towers...but I think it's just the way it's made. The Craven plates have a slight curvature so they do fit more snugly across the top. With the M7s a slight amount of mushrooming might occur before the strut metal contacts the strut top plate. With the Craven complete contact with the strut plate already exist.

That's quite likely complete BS...maybe someone knows for sure why the Craven plates are suddenly the ones to have and better than the M7 ones?

 

^ My M7s do sit flat across across the top.

 

Maybe I had a bit of mushrooming already.

Another explanation for why the Cravens are better?

 

All the talk about sandwitching is making me hungry!


So I have a question or two about this topic.
First. With the fixed camber plates, if I also install lowering springs and someday also replace the strut will the alignment be too hard to fix? Or does everything just stay the same? I dont really think I will ever track the car (other than once or twice just to try it) so will the fixed plated be good for the street as well as helping with the mushrooming?

 

Well, I explained why I like the Craven design better. The huge strut-mount stud extension increases the contact area between the studs and the top plate, thus restricting stud movement. That said, I wouldn't toss the M7 plates. Our reason for switching were personal, less rational and not worth discussing here (or anywhere... ).

One interesting note worth mentioning: when I installed the Craven plates on IE fixed plates, I had to trim the IE plate studs as they would bottom out in the Craven stud extensions, therefore not allowing them to tighten against the tower. Fortunately, I discovered this before I had the strut assembled.

I will say I really like the IE fixed plates. I had the MCS out for a quick drive yesterday and dove into a few sharp turns at speed and really noticed the quicker turn in (at the same time we added the camber plates, Koni FSD's and Powerflex LCA bushings were installed as well).

Replacing the upper mount after mushrooming is generally recommended, although not 100% required unless the rubber part is visibly torn/cracked. If on a budget, you can take the strut assembly out of the car and bend the mounting plate flat again in a vice. Some have also raised the car to unload the suspension and pounded the tower and mount flat together, although I've never done it that way.

 

I had an excellent roast beef and pastrami sandwich at the Pescadero General Store this weekend! Yummi!

And the fixed camber plates are great for street cars UNLESS most of your driving is on the freeway. Then you will get a bit of uneven tire wear.

If you change the camber, you should get an alignment, because camber and toe couple.... Change the camber and the toe shifts too.

Just lowering springs shouldn't change the camber toe other than the slop in the holes. So an alignement isn't REQUIRED, but it's good form to do it. Same with struts. But watch out, there is limited travel on the Mini, and if you lower too much bottoming will be more of an issue.

Matt

 

one thing I would love to see is a photo of the top of the strut (or whatever sits under and against the bottom side of the strut tower. I am trying to visualize the stresses there and see if I can envision the plates doing the job they are intended for. I did buy the cravens today so I must believe something.

cheers. Peter

 

h-sport (hotchkis) camber plate:

the aluminum parts are what sit directly under the strut top mount area on the MINI.
the adjustable areas show thru the strut top mount area. the camber plates basically sit flush against the bottom surface of the sheet metal.
the blue parts are the spring hats

this is the OEM piece:

the center section is made of rubber. many people on these boards have cracked the rubber part and in extreme cases the sheet metal has cracked as well. it's thin metal in comparison to the aluminum camber plates available on the market

 

it's steel.

Matt

 

Yep... I have a set of those in the garage right now waiting to be installed in a friend's MCS. Nicely made, I must say... although the bearing mount between the plate and the strut does not look good for ride quality...

I'll try to explain the functional difference between the M7 and Craven plates... Simply put, The strut mount is the part that is failing. The mushrooming of the tower is secondary damage. This is why everyone says to really fix the problem, install camber plates.

The M7 plates reinforce the assembly by adding thickness to the tower, but does little to keep the mounting studs aligned due to required manufacturing tolerances of the mounting holes and the limited size of the studs. The Craven plate reinforces the strut mount by increasing the effective size of the mounting studs and then tieing all three together.

Because the M7 plate is designed to make use of the OE strut mount studs, the actual mounting surface and contact between the parts is only marginally increased and because the actual mounting thickness of the plate at the stud is relatively thin, the studs can still splay out, although to a lesser extent than if bare. I know this for fact from when I removed M7 plates that I had previously installed. They went on easily as the strut mounts were brand new. I almost needed a pry-bar to get the damn thing past the splayed studs after a coupple of years of daily driving..

Bashing M7 is not my intention. I'm just telling my experience. When the whole mushrooming issue came to light a couple of years ago, we purchased the M7 plates in an effort to prevent it. However, I was never very happy with how they fit, so we continued to look for new options. After installing both on a number of cars, I like the design of the Craven plates better and I hope I've adequately explained why. If another company comes along and offers a new design and it turns out the Craven plates aren't doing the job, I'll give thsoe a try. If you have M7 plates and they're working for you, there's no reason to change.

 

IanF,

Good post, and thanks for the explanation. It is never "bashing" to talk factually about products, there design, and the reasons you see for preferring one or the other.

"Mushrooming", if it happens can be an expensive and time-consuming problem, and being informed and taking the best preventive action is important to many MINI owners.

resmini

 

Fantastic! thanks folks, As mentioned I bought the cravens, they are out of stock but hopefully will have them soon.

I am surprised the mushrooming happens with that much support under the strut tower cap, I could see a tear or a split but with the plate under there I would think the pressure is even UNLESS the top plate (sitting under the top of the strut tower) bends as well?

Peter

 

If anyone is going to pound down the towers and not replace the mounts, you should also make sure that they are in perfect shape. If there are any slight bends in them, they will lose most of their strength. I wish I had taken a picture of my stock strut mount when I replaced them with the IE fixed plates. They looked like they had been run over by a semi. They were completely deformed! The metal in them is about as thick and weak as the tower. Remember that if the tower is deformed, the thin mount that is bolted to it will be deformed.

Also remember that if the rubber is cracked on the mount, you are riding on a thin metal mount connected to a thin metal tower. The rubber plays a big part in absorbing impacts. If the rubber breaks and you hit a pot hole, you are at a greater risk. It's practically metal to metal.

 

The strut mount plate bends when the tower bends...they are tightly bolted together and both thin and flimsy.

 

Which brings up the obvious question of why no-one offers a simple 1/8" steel reinforcement plate for the stock strut mount - seems like it would work a lot better than any top-mounted plate, without the cost of camber plates with bearings, etc.