Hi there,

I just want to know how is it that most lowered Minis on this site is sooooooooo much lower than mine and not experiencing any driveshaft/drivetrain problems. I'm experiencing a vibration on acceleration after installing H-Sport 30mm springs. I know this has been discussed but I could not find any solution to this. I took my car into the dealer and I was told it was a faulty shock and my driveshafts were fine. Could that be?

My car has been at the dealer for the last week as they are awaiting parts (one shock) from Germany. I can't take it anymore! Anyone else experience this?(the vibration) If yes, what was done to resolve this?

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez help!

 

The stock CV joints do not, apparently, like changes beyond 1/2" in ride height. Vibration is the norm...and adding more neg camber make the angle more acute and will most likely add to the vibration. I replaced the passenger side axle - whole thing with inner and outer CV joints - and the vibration was still apparent.

your solution is to purchase pure racing CV joints. These typically work with a wider variation in ride height and camber adjustments. Very pricey and probably not a solution for the street.

The vibration is part of 'lowered' mini life.

 

I just can't believe that its the norm. How come only certain Minis are affected by this. Surely, not every Mini that is lowered has the vibration judging by the amount of VERY low Minis on NAM.

Oh well.. I'll leave it to the dealer to sort out, if not, up she goes...

Thanks for the reply though...

 

I'm hearing about these "pure racing CV joints" all the time here, but WHERE to get them???????
I want to lower my mini soon, and the only thing I'm afraid of are the CV joints, I don't care about the price, as long as I don't get vibrations when "slamming" it...

 

I cannot answer that question...and it is a bit of a mystery. I've played with cars since 1981 and I've never experienced this condition. But know this, lowering a car will affect CV joint durability, whether it vibrates or not. Lowering and added neg camber place them out of their normal range of operation.

 

My guess the lack of reponses has two possible explanations:
1. Not many people with lowered cars have vibration problems. There are some threads that discuss the problem a lot, and my recollection is of no concensus or real conclusion as to the cause, or the solution.
2. People have some vibration but live with it. I have lowered my car twice now. First by 1" using HSport springs and there was no difference at all. The second time by another 1" using COs and there's a very slight vibration but not worth worrying about.

btw, are you running metal centering rings on your aftermarket wheels? They are essential to eliminate any wheel-related problems with vibration.

good luck

 

@DrPhil: I know a lot of people in germany having problems with the vibrations, they were also some people who are selling some kind of "spacers", so the OUTER's joint "gap" is closed when lowering it...but that doesn't help a lot, some people got a bit less vibrations with it, but only a few...
The problem I think is the INNER CV joint, I'm working on a solution for this with some friends, but we're still at the "beginning"... :-/

 

This condition will not go away, trust me.

Look in Grass Roots Magazine for a few CV joint suppliers...they devoted an entire issue to CV joints last summer. It was very interesting. Heat loads generated from braking also affect their durability and road course racing or club events are brutal on CV joints. The angle of CV joints thru time is much greater on the road course and heat loads are also higher. AutoXing is far kinder to these.

On the pasenger side, I would suspect the outer CV joint as the bearing carrier prevents thr inner from changing angles much. On the Driver's side, it could be either...but the vibration I felt and continue to feel comes from the passenger side. Very easy to change by the way...re-bolting up the carrier bearing is a PITA, however. If you have small hands you'll be fine! took me a little over an hour and I replaced the pasenger side bearing while I was at it.

 

WHAT condition will not go away?? How do you know? What tests did you made? It could be very useful if you can tell me what you tried allready, so we don't have to try it a 2nd time...

and what is "grass roots magazine"?? Can you direct me to that issue pleas?

 

2.7 million miles of driving and 26 years tracking cars...the vibration is caused by CV joint angles that are ouside the range of the production CV joints. We can write thousands of paper and peform a few hundred tests, but the fact that stock CV joints do not like lowering and or aggessive camber angles is past history.

The only test is a wear test and that requires pulling the CV joint apart. since there is a rather large core charge for new axles/CV joints, I opted to give the old stuff back - $460.00 was quite enough. Grab a CV joint one day and examine the internals...you can rotate a portion of the axle to simulate extreme angles. You will then have an idea for how excessive angles accelerate wear. Most of the wear come from turns.

 

My car is right hand drive so the vibration is originating from the drivers side.

@Meb: The explanation you have makes sense to me, but it does not explain why some guys lower their cars virtually on the ground and not experience this.

This is really confusing... All I know is, that the vibration is too harsh for me "to live with" . I will be getting my car back on Tuesday next week and I will let you guys know the outcome.

Thanks again...

 

The magazine meb referred to is Grassroots Motorsports: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/

Great magazine for autocrossers / track day / club racing folks in the US. Might not be too applicable for Germany, though. :D

 

Thanks Jasen - I forgot to inlcude the link

I don't know why some folks experience this while others do not...don't underestimate the many other variables between cars; not build tolerances, but spring and damping characterisitics, tire compliance and bushing material. My first setup had pillow ball mounts and the second is a simple thrust bushing. These will not absorb vibration...I also have Power Flex LCA bushings and a poly Steering rack bushing.

I've also thought about another reason, but is far less scientific than the unscientific above...how the axle/CV joints were handled during new strut install. Removing the stock struts requires you remove the lower outside ball joint so the damper can be removed from the knuckle. When I did this, I foolishly removed the three upper strut bolts first. When the ball joint nut was removed, the LCA came crashing down with the load of the strut on it. That's a no, no! I have no idea if this is valid, but after very carefully replacing an entire axle with inner and outer CV joints, the vibration was subdued, but still obvious. Today, 40K miles later the vibration comes and goes with more or less the same frequency as after the first strut removal.

Camber angles also add to the extreme angle CV joints are forced to work in. If some folks have lowered their cars without adding any additional neg camber while others have, we may find that lowering by itself is not a problem. Adding more negative camber may take the CV joints beyond their stock threshold. This would make an interesting survey...who wants to begin one?

 

There are a lot of threads in german forums about this, and a lot of surveys have been done!!

It's not like "Everyone has it, you can't solve the problem"...we're now working on a solution, we have a lot of specialists around, and I'm sure we'll find a solution for all this!!

and meb, I want to see your 26 year old BMW Mini!! NOW!!!

 

Funny, reall funny

A CV joint is a CV joint is a CV joint - if it is stock. Stock range has a limit and that will not change from model to model or year to year. Some will have more tolerance than others; my 99 Si has just over 200,000 miles on orginal axles and CV joints lowered and tracked. My 1990 GTI16V did not have good CV joints period. Go figure...

 

Thanks for your help, you'll be the only one I won't tell the solution...



If you think it's "funny", you can laugh about it, but instead of laughing around and keep saying "It's not possible to get rid of the problem" WE do something to solve the problem!!!

Thanks for your "help", I'm off with some guys now and check some different axles, joints and whatever you call them...

 

GrossmeisterB,

I did not refer to this problem as funny, anywhere. Your 'better than me attitude' is, however, funny.

I offerd my opinion and it is certainly a valid one. If you prefer to find your solution to the vibration, I've no problem. But all you have done is mock my experience and suggestions...pretty much revealing a closed mind. Hence, I doubt you will find the problem...on your own.

I know where the problem is, I know the cause, and I offered a solution. That is the only solution. I am not burdened by the fact that my solution is not certified by you. It works.

 

You weren't laughing at the problem, you were laughing at me (and all the other people) who are trying to actually solve the problem!!
If you weren't able to manage to solve the problem, then please stop laughing about other people actually trying to SOLVE it!!

It has nothing to do with "I'm better than you" or "my p.nis is longer than yours" or anything like that!!

I don't care how much "experience" you have!!
We have our own experiences here, and they differ a lot from your experiences!! And I know that the other people I'm working with are all very much educated, so their experiences aren't just some "kids stuff"...

You can tell your "suggestions" if you like, but don't expect me to listen to them!!

 

Okay guy's lets keep this thread on track. Meb has his opinions and GrossmeisterB has his. I can see where meb is comming from, that the OEM cv joints have limitations. I'm hoping tho as he has said that all cars are different and lowering may work on some and not the others. I would like to lower mine, but not sacrifice "to much" comfort or have a vibration. lets keep the solutions comming .

 

You are right with "the OEM cv joints have limitations", but that's only in an unmodified condition!! :-)

And yeah, let's keep the solutions comming!!

 

Well you misunderstood, I don't laugh at others...I'm very confused about where in this thread I laughed at you or made fun of you???

I've contributed for quite a while to this website and with great success...that does not happen by laughing at folks asking for help.

Very interesting selection of words GrossmeisterB...please, don't accuse me of laughing or not caring.

"I don't care how much "experience" you have!!" ..."You can tell your "suggestions" if you like, but don't expect me to listen to them!!"

On the contrary, you have been polking fun in the fashion of a 16 year old. Move on.

 

Gross can you help me out with this statement. Are you saying if we modify our suspensions the cv joints would be ok? I for one hope your right, because raceing cv joints are Veryyy expensive!

 

Raise ride height and reduce excessive neg camber. This is not a mystery problem folks; any race prep shop will offer the same advise.

The affected components are: CV joints, and or the half shafter carrier bearing - there is only one and it is on the pasenger side.

 

I was talking about the cv joints!! So, unmodifed CV joints = problems, modified cv joints = maybe no problems

EDIT: to get this clear: wer are working on a solution to modify the STOCK cv joints, so they won't vibrate or brake or whatever when the car is lowered!! There ARE also some "solutions" for this, some spacers for the outer joints, but they don't work 100%, on some cars they've removed all the vibrations, and the axles/joints are still fine!
I will keep you updated here on how it's going, I won't tell you all the details, because it would take too much time to explain it all!! but trust me, we will find a solution, as I said there are a lot of well educated people working on it, we even have contact to several people working at BMW in munich!! It's no some "kiddies project" or what, we want the solution for this, because are lot of people are having this problem!! And I will repeat that, I won't listen to people telling me "I've xxx miles of racing experiences, trust me, it won't work, forget about it!", without telling me what exact tests have been done!!

'Nuf said?

 

I don't think it's realistic to think you can modify the stock CV joints to solve
this (without redesigning them, therefore not really the stock CV joints anymore).
BTW, please don't listen to me, as I don't have any precise test data to share.