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Is this legal in STX?

  #1  
Old 02-23-2014, 07:44 PM
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grantsfo
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Curious if this would be legal mod in STX? http://burgertuning.com/Mini_Cooper_...nce_tuner.html. Piggyback to trick existing stock tune boost maps etc to be optimized . Is that technically a way to do legal tune
.
 

Last edited by grantsfo; 02-23-2014 at 08:33 PM.
  #2  
Old 02-24-2014, 03:55 AM
cmt52663
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I would say not, because the manufacturer says:

"Boost is increased 2-4psi on average depending on the climate and conditions."

And the 2014 Rules say:

"...no changes to standard
boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted."


Here is the entire section - perhaps I am not reading clearly?

The engine management system parameters and operation may be
modified only via the methods listed below. These allowances also
apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard
boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted. Boost
changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifi cations are permissible
but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls,
either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. Traction
control parameters may not be altered. Any OE OBD2 or newer communications
port functionality must remain. The Check Engine Light
(CEL) or Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) may be disabled via software.
Alternate software maps which violate these restrictions may
not be present during competition, regardless of activation. Only OE
sensors may be used for engine management.
1. Reprogrammed ECU/PCM (via hardware and/or software) may be
used in the standard housing.
2. Supplementary (“Piggyback”) ECU may be used subject to the
following restrictions:
a. Connects between the standard ECU/PCM and its wiring harness
only.
b. Must be plug-compatible with the standard ECU/PCM (no splices).


Cheers,

Charlie
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:23 AM
replacement
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Originally Posted by cmt52663 View Post
I would say not, because the manufacturer says:

"Boost is increased 2-4psi on average depending on the climate and conditions."
Yep I think you're right that it would not be allowed. I had a wrx w/ cobb accessport and there was a specific STX map you could run that optimized some parameters but left it at the stock boost level. Even then I remember it was kinda in a gray area because it was easy enough to switch around maps, plus you could reflash your base map to a more agressive tune but switch your realtime map to the "legal" one. That was a few years ago and I'm not sure exactly how it shook out.

With the gains they're showing here I don't think that 2-4psi could be "indirect"
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:25 AM
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However this is just changing signal from MAF and is indirect impact to boost. I don't believe the car is making anymore boost than it would in ideal situation? All stock ECU mapping is still in place? I don't know that its clear but would like to hear from people who have been around ST for awhile.
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:37 AM
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Ah interesting I didn't see that until going to their install guide... so it plugs right into the MAF? problem there is it fails the requirement "a. Connects between the standard ECU/PCM and its wiring harness only."
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by replacement View Post
Ah interesting I didn't see that until going to their install guide... so it plugs right into the MAF? problem there is it fails the requirement "a. Connects between the standard ECU/PCM and its wiring harness only."
However wonder if its truly considered an ECU piggy back? Its reinterpreting MAF signal sent to ECU to optimize OEM tune. Its a wierd one. I know rules say if it isnt specifically called out its not legal but this one to me seems a little gray as it is taking advantage of existing boost maps? Its just better optimizing for better gas. It literally just sits in between original wire and maf sensor. Old wire plugs into one end and other into MAF. Its not another sensor as it uses signal from the OEM sensor.

And wonder if Im boosting less than a JCW which is listed in class am I really boosting more than class allows? I just look at this as very low cost way to put power on par with JCW cars in same class.
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by grantsfo View Post
However wonder if its truly considered an ECU piggy back? Its reinterpreting MAF signal sent to ECU to optimize OEM tune. Its a wierd one. I know rules say if it isnt specifically called out its not legal but this one to me seems a little gray as it is taking advantage of existing boost maps? Its just better optimizing for better gas. It literally just sits in between original wire and maf sensor. Old wire plugs into one end and other into MAF. Its not another sensor as it uses signal from the OEM sensor.

And wonder if Im boosting less than a JCW which is listed in class am I really boosting more than class allows? I just look at this as very low cost way to put power on par with JCW cars in same class.
The standard answer would be that sucks the JCW is in the same class, but it's still not legal... Will anyone protest you locally? no. But how competitive are you? If I'm remotely competitive in my class I could not have anything illegal and keep a clear conscience... at some point you can say well that Audi TT or WRX or whatever has some other inherent advantages, so I should be allowed to cheat a little right?

What I do wonder is what if you had a true piggy back (between ECU and harness) that did the exact same thing, modified MAF parameters? If it were legal to plug something in somewhere else that did the exact same thing then it's a lot less egregious to me. I would research similar piggyback systems for other STX cars and see if you can find any examples.

On the subject of modding and legality though, what I liked to do when I wasn't well prepped for my class was just measure myself against the field in overall PAX each event, try to get into the upper half, then top 20, etc... You can still make improvements and it's a lot cheaper than modding not to mention keeps the car more reliable. So you miss out on a beer coozy "trophy." If you really start to plateau then think about car/setup. Also last thing, what is your tire setup? Probably the single most important thing you can upgrade.
 
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:39 PM
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It's probably arguable both ways but I'd bet money on you losing a protest over this...
 
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by replacement View Post
The standard answer would be that sucks the JCW is in the same class, but it's still not legal... Will anyone protest you locally? no. But how competitive are you? If I'm remotely competitive in my class I could not have anything illegal and keep a clear conscience... at some point you can say well that Audi TT or WRX or whatever has some other inherent advantages, so I should be allowed to cheat a little right? What I do wonder is what if you had a true piggy back (between ECU and harness) that did the exact same thing, modified MAF parameters? If it were legal to plug something in somewhere else that did the exact same thing then it's a lot less egregious to me. I would research similar piggyback systems for other STX cars and see if you can find any examples. On the subject of modding and legality though, what I liked to do when I wasn't well prepped for my class was just measure myself against the field in overall PAX each event, try to get into the upper half, then top 20, etc... You can still make improvements and it's a lot cheaper than modding not to mention keeps the car more reliable. So you miss out on a beer coozy "trophy." If you really start to plateau then think about car/setup. Also last thing, what is your tire setup? Probably the single most important thing you can upgrade.
I'm not looking to cheat. Just trying to get a sense of legality as it would be cheap power boost and less intrusive on a car that is still under warranty. My car now is like an average prepped D Stock car with aftermarket springs.. Koni sports, TSW springs, HSport rear bar running 205/50/16 Dunlop ZII. Beat all 10 cars in STX including nicely prepared BRZ on 235s. Likely top 10 pax. But this is a local club with not nearly as many fast STX guys. We will see when I go to big boys and girls event next month.. All of us could work on driving but the basics like competitive levels of power and grip are where I like to focus outside of my driving. I am likely a protest target so I need to keep it clean and I'm not one to put cheats on my cars. I'm not out to win a plastic trophy or a jacket at an AX?
 
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:54 AM
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Ah it's cool, you have a nice setup... In that case I would not risk it purely based on the not plugging in between ECU and harness rule.
 
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by grantsfo View Post
However this is just changing signal from MAF and is indirect impact to boost. I don't believe the car is making anymore boost than it would in ideal situation? All stock ECU mapping is still in place? I don't know that its clear but would like to hear from people who have been around ST for awhile.

I believe the BD+ is legal because it does not alter the boost tables at all. If you read the rule on down below what Charlie posted, this is where the BD+ fits in to STX rule set...........

Electronic components may be installed in-line between an engine’s sensors and ECU/PCM. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU/PCM operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.

Sure, the BD+ indirectly causes the boost to raise, but, that is allowed. The STX rules clearly state that if any ALLOWED modification indirectly causes higher boost, then it is permitted. You just cannot change the boost tables, which, the BD+ does not.

One additional option is to just go with a JCW tuning kit tune which is legal since it was a port installed option. That DOES raise the boost and its 100% LEGAL since it is a port installed option. You could just do the tune only as well if you could find a dealer that could do that since all the other parts are STX replaceable.
 

Last edited by FATMIN; 03-26-2014 at 10:12 PM.
  #12  
Old 03-27-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FATMIN View Post
I believe the BD+ is legal because it does not alter the boost tables at all. If you read the rule on down below what Charlie posted, this is where the BD+ fits in to STX rule set...........

Electronic components may be installed in-line between an engine’s sensors and ECU/PCM. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU/PCM operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.

Sure, the BD+ indirectly causes the boost to raise, but, that is allowed. The STX rules clearly state that if any ALLOWED modification indirectly causes higher boost, then it is permitted. You just cannot change the boost tables, which, the BD+ does not.

One additional option is to just go with a JCW tuning kit tune which is legal since it was a port installed option. That DOES raise the boost and its 100% LEGAL since it is a port installed option. You could just do the tune only as well if you could find a dealer that could do that since all the other parts are STX replaceable.
Well crap I think the new guy is right. I didn't read that far down in the rulebook. Looks like the JB+ would be STX legal.
 
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:33 AM
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good discussion, even though im not involved
 
  #14  
Old 03-27-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FATMIN View Post
I believe the BD+ is legal because it does not alter the boost tables at all. If you read the rule on down below what Charlie posted, this is where the BD+ fits in to STX rule set...........

Electronic components may be installed in-line between an engine’s sensors and ECU/PCM. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU/PCM operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.

Sure, the BD+ indirectly causes the boost to raise, but, that is allowed. The STX rules clearly state that if any ALLOWED modification indirectly causes higher boost, then it is permitted. You just cannot change the boost tables, which, the BD+ does not.

One additional option is to just go with a JCW tuning kit tune which is legal since it was a port installed option. That DOES raise the boost and its 100% LEGAL since it is a port installed option. You could just do the tune only as well if you could find a dealer that could do that since all the other parts are STX replaceable.
That makes sense to me, but if I were intending to compete Nationally I'd seek further advice (either via sccaforums.com, or a letter).

Kind regards,

Charlie
 
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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I'd write a letter to the SEB for clairification. Boost increased by downpipe and up pipe install is legal since it's a byproduct. Modifying boost directly is legal. Is there a provision for manipulating the MAF signal to the stock ECU? If so then it could be legal. I'd do all the exhaust and intake mods and get a good tune before this. Then the car will be safely optimized.
 
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