Pop - Clunk Clunk!
#26
Originally Posted by mini626
Got the word from EF1 yesterday, threads were gone so the cylinder needs a new Helicoil. 800$
So was Mini full of it when they said they could just screw in a new plug????????
So was Mini full of it when they said they could just screw in a new plug????????
Was it a improperly torqued plug?
Was it a faulty plug?
Are the Denso IK22s poorly manufactured?
I just checked my NGKs the other day, and after a couple months of hard driving they were still dead on at 20ft-lbs.
#27
#28
#29
Originally Posted by mini626
Um, hopefully this isn't a silly question... but should the shop be able to tell where the fault lies... If it was improperly torqued some 18 months ago.... or if the plug was bad or at this point is it just coulda been anything....
I would probably think of an improperly torqued plug as a very LAST idea, since I HIGHLY doubt Webb would do that incorrectly. Saying a high-end mod/mechanic like Webb can't torque a plug is like saying a F1 race car driver doesn't know how to start a car.
I've been reading around and searching on NAM about plugs and it seems that anytime someone has issues with a loose plug they are always Denso's... I don't know if that is just coincidence or if the Denso's just aren't made properly to stay seated.
It is possible that the original head was already damaged and/or faulty... but that would be impossible to prove since MINI could argue that you or Webb or your other aftermarket mods caused the head to break.
#30
This situation has really left me in a precarious position (and anyone who thought the aftermarket warranty might apply). Since MINI blames the aftermarket parts I've lost any recourse with them and since the warranty only covers issues that the installer determines is their fault, and in this case they blame MINI, I lose there too.
I'm not sure if all the after market warranties work this way... but I'm sure gonna think twice about believing in one in the future.
I'm not sure if all the after market warranties work this way... but I'm sure gonna think twice about believing in one in the future.
#31
#32
Remember...
that this is a known issue with heads. But it does make you think.... Basically, if you're into modding, you better be into increased risk.
But it's pretty weak that WM is basically saying that you should have known about this issue, and checked your own plugs, without specific direction that you should do this at the time of installation..... WM should have let you know that you should check the torques periodically. In hindsite, you either would have done this, or if you didn't, WM would have a concrete reason to tell you to take a hike....
Matt
But it's pretty weak that WM is basically saying that you should have known about this issue, and checked your own plugs, without specific direction that you should do this at the time of installation..... WM should have let you know that you should check the torques periodically. In hindsite, you either would have done this, or if you didn't, WM would have a concrete reason to tell you to take a hike....
Matt
#33
Thanks for the support guys.
Here's a copy of the letter I've written to Webb. Moderators, if you feel this is a violation of privacy or something please let me know and I'll take it down.
No response yet
Here's a copy of the letter I've written to Webb. Moderators, if you feel this is a violation of privacy or something please let me know and I'll take it down.
No response yet
[FONT=-moz-fixed] Randy,
This is David, we spoke the other day regarding my '04 MCS with the blown spark plug (you did my pulley and plugs on 10/23/04 at Steve's Auto Clinic in Northridge, CA). Firstly I need to thank you for recommending that I take the car to EF1, Fabrizio verified that the threads were in fact stripped, I don't know what would have happened had MINI simply put in stock plugs.... I'm sure more damage would have occurred. It's my understanding that the head will have to be re-tapped and the estimate is just about $800.00.
When the issue first occurred I contacted your shop through the form on your website and was promptly responded to by Brian. Brian first noted that this issue is common in the 02-03 MINIs and that it should be as simple as replacing the plugs. I pointed out that my MCS is an '04 and asked what would be covered under the Webb warranty in this case. His answer was "What ever it takes to fix the car basically." I've attached the content of that email as reference for you. At that point I felt confident that, regardless of the commonality of this issue (at least in previous model years), I would be covered by a warranty that I understood at the time the work was performed to mean that additional maintenance or damage potentially caused by the after market products installed by you, not covered by MINI, would be covered.
After discussing the issue with you on the phone you made me aware that this issue may have been caused by faulty engineering on the MINI and that since this is so common you do not in fact cover the repairs under your warranty but are referring me to a shop in your network as a favor. Following that conversation I reviewed your warranty in depth and found out that the warranty only applies if you determine that the failure is in fact yours, I did not realize this at the time the service was done, nor was I made aware of this policy. While I understand that there is a debate currently in the MINI community as to where this problem lies, with some parties noting that improper tightening can cause this issue (and that after market plugs should be checked periodically for proper tightening, a fact I was not made aware of at the time they were installed, nor was I aware of the post on your site regarding the issue) and others (yourself included) maintain that the metal/threading itself is defective in early model years of the MCS (and potentially my model year). MINI of course denies that the later is possible, or at least does not recognize the issue enough to warrant a recall or service advisory.
So I am left in the unfortunate middle. Is it possible that the work performed by you caused the damage in which case I should be covered by your warranty or is it possible that the plugs loosen on there own due to a poor design by MINI. I don't know how or if either could be proved.
So given all of the information please let me know what you are willing to cover in this instance. Also, I'd like to know if you have covered the repairs required by this problem in the past, either at your shop or through your warranty network and at what point you determined that it was no longer covered by your warranty or has this issue never been covered by you at anytime.
Thank you again for your time and assistance in this matter.
Best,
David
Attached: Emails with Brain at Webb Motorsports, read from the bottom up
What ever it takes to fix the car basically. It shouldnt be more than
reinstalltion of plugs though.
-Brian
This is David, we spoke the other day regarding my '04 MCS with the blown spark plug (you did my pulley and plugs on 10/23/04 at Steve's Auto Clinic in Northridge, CA). Firstly I need to thank you for recommending that I take the car to EF1, Fabrizio verified that the threads were in fact stripped, I don't know what would have happened had MINI simply put in stock plugs.... I'm sure more damage would have occurred. It's my understanding that the head will have to be re-tapped and the estimate is just about $800.00.
When the issue first occurred I contacted your shop through the form on your website and was promptly responded to by Brian. Brian first noted that this issue is common in the 02-03 MINIs and that it should be as simple as replacing the plugs. I pointed out that my MCS is an '04 and asked what would be covered under the Webb warranty in this case. His answer was "What ever it takes to fix the car basically." I've attached the content of that email as reference for you. At that point I felt confident that, regardless of the commonality of this issue (at least in previous model years), I would be covered by a warranty that I understood at the time the work was performed to mean that additional maintenance or damage potentially caused by the after market products installed by you, not covered by MINI, would be covered.
After discussing the issue with you on the phone you made me aware that this issue may have been caused by faulty engineering on the MINI and that since this is so common you do not in fact cover the repairs under your warranty but are referring me to a shop in your network as a favor. Following that conversation I reviewed your warranty in depth and found out that the warranty only applies if you determine that the failure is in fact yours, I did not realize this at the time the service was done, nor was I made aware of this policy. While I understand that there is a debate currently in the MINI community as to where this problem lies, with some parties noting that improper tightening can cause this issue (and that after market plugs should be checked periodically for proper tightening, a fact I was not made aware of at the time they were installed, nor was I aware of the post on your site regarding the issue) and others (yourself included) maintain that the metal/threading itself is defective in early model years of the MCS (and potentially my model year). MINI of course denies that the later is possible, or at least does not recognize the issue enough to warrant a recall or service advisory.
So I am left in the unfortunate middle. Is it possible that the work performed by you caused the damage in which case I should be covered by your warranty or is it possible that the plugs loosen on there own due to a poor design by MINI. I don't know how or if either could be proved.
So given all of the information please let me know what you are willing to cover in this instance. Also, I'd like to know if you have covered the repairs required by this problem in the past, either at your shop or through your warranty network and at what point you determined that it was no longer covered by your warranty or has this issue never been covered by you at anytime.
Thank you again for your time and assistance in this matter.
Best,
David
Attached: Emails with Brain at Webb Motorsports, read from the bottom up
What ever it takes to fix the car basically. It shouldnt be more than
reinstalltion of plugs though.
-Brian
> Meaning my car shouldn't have had this problem but did?
>
> In any case... back to my original question... What is covered under
> the Webb warranty in this case?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave
>
> brian wrote:
[/FONT]>
> In any case... back to my original question... What is covered under
> the Webb warranty in this case?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave
>
> brian wrote:
>> They made the changes from 03-04 right around that time, so you may have
>> lucked out.
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
> >> lucked out.
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>> Brian,
>>>
>>> Thanks for getting back to me so quickly!
>>>
>>> I've got an '04 MCS, I think it was a Feb production as I took delivery
>>> at the end of March. Any history of this problem with the '04's?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> brian wrote:
>>>
>> >>>
>>> Thanks for getting back to me so quickly!
>>>
>>> I've got an '04 MCS, I think it was a Feb production as I took delivery
>>> at the end of March. Any history of this problem with the '04's?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> brian wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Dave,
>>>>
>>>> What year is the car? There is a problem with the 02-03 cars with the
>>>> composition of the cylinder head allowing the plugs to back out.
>>>> Unfortunatly MINI has not recognized this problem. If you want proof
>>>> do
>>>> a
>>>> search on NAM as this is a common problem. Fortunatly, I cant see
>>>> there
>>>> being any internal damage from a plug backing out. They should just
>>>> stick
>>>> the plug back in, torque it, and send you on your way. From now on,
>>>> it
>>>> would be a good idea to check the plugs every month. It is very easy
>>>> to
>>>> do. All you need is a torque wrench, a extension, and a 16mm deep
>>>> socket. Pull the plug wires from the cylinder head(the four circular
>>>> black rubbery parts right behind the intercooler)by first twisting and
>>>> then pull straight up. You will then be able to look down into the
>>>> cylinder head and see the plugs. Just tighten them to 21ft-lbs and
>>>> put
>>>> the wires back in. Push the wires in until you feel a slight click.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know what the dealer sais and if you need anything else.
>>>>
>>>> -Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What year is the car? There is a problem with the 02-03 cars with the
>>>> composition of the cylinder head allowing the plugs to back out.
>>>> Unfortunatly MINI has not recognized this problem. If you want proof
>>>> do
>>>> a
>>>> search on NAM as this is a common problem. Fortunatly, I cant see
>>>> there
>>>> being any internal damage from a plug backing out. They should just
>>>> stick
>>>> the plug back in, torque it, and send you on your way. From now on,
>>>> it
>>>> would be a good idea to check the plugs every month. It is very easy
>>>> to
>>>> do. All you need is a torque wrench, a extension, and a 16mm deep
>>>> socket. Pull the plug wires from the cylinder head(the four circular
>>>> black rubbery parts right behind the intercooler)by first twisting and
>>>> then pull straight up. You will then be able to look down into the
>>>> cylinder head and see the plugs. Just tighten them to 21ft-lbs and
>>>> put
>>>> the wires back in. Push the wires in until you feel a slight click.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know what the dealer sais and if you need anything else.
>>>>
>>>> -Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Randy,
>>>>>
>>>>> You installed my pulley and IK22 plugs at the LA pulley party
>>>>> 10/23/04.
>>>>> Yesterday on my drive home from work I heard a loud pop and then the
>>>>> car
>>>>> started sounding like a lawn mower... I pulled over and popped the
>>>>> hood
>>>>> to
>>>>> see that a spark plug had popped almost entirely out of the engine.
>>>>> I
>>>>> dropped it off at my local Mini dealership yesterday and they are
>>>>> inspecting today.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to see what's covered under your warranty in the event
>>>>> that
>>>>> the dealership gives me any grief for the aftermarket parts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Randy,
>>>>>
>>>>> You installed my pulley and IK22 plugs at the LA pulley party
>>>>> 10/23/04.
>>>>> Yesterday on my drive home from work I heard a loud pop and then the
>>>>> car
>>>>> started sounding like a lawn mower... I pulled over and popped the
>>>>> hood
>>>>> to
>>>>> see that a spark plug had popped almost entirely out of the engine.
>>>>> I
>>>>> dropped it off at my local Mini dealership yesterday and they are
>>>>> inspecting today.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to see what's covered under your warranty in the event
>>>>> that
>>>>> the dealership gives me any grief for the aftermarket parts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
#36
#37
#38
I spoke with Randy over the phone today about this topic.
He would like to express the fact that this is a known metallurgy problem that has been discussed many times on this forum. The issue was fixed by MINI in the 03-04 build year transition. Dave's car was a February built 04 which happened to fall right at the end of this change.
Unfortunately for all of us, MINI does not recognize this as a problem. We have told several people at MINI about this issue, to which we have been told it is not MINIs fault, and there has never been a problem.
Unless someone wants to go up against the 500lb gorilla, there is not much that can be done to get them to recognize the issue.
Also, the fact that these plugs were Denso plugs has nothing to do with the damage caused to Dave's or anyone else’s car as we have personally encountered factory installed stock plugs that have done the same thing.
I would also like to say that Randy and Dave have spoken at length about this. He is in Chicago at the moment which is why Dave has not heard from him.
-Brian
He would like to express the fact that this is a known metallurgy problem that has been discussed many times on this forum. The issue was fixed by MINI in the 03-04 build year transition. Dave's car was a February built 04 which happened to fall right at the end of this change.
Unfortunately for all of us, MINI does not recognize this as a problem. We have told several people at MINI about this issue, to which we have been told it is not MINIs fault, and there has never been a problem.
Unless someone wants to go up against the 500lb gorilla, there is not much that can be done to get them to recognize the issue.
Also, the fact that these plugs were Denso plugs has nothing to do with the damage caused to Dave's or anyone else’s car as we have personally encountered factory installed stock plugs that have done the same thing.
I would also like to say that Randy and Dave have spoken at length about this. He is in Chicago at the moment which is why Dave has not heard from him.
-Brian
#39
Originally Posted by Brian@WebbMotorsports
I would also like to say that Randy and Dave have spoken at length about this.
I've spoken with Randy once which is when he set me up with EF1 and explained how he was doing this as a favor, not under the Webb warranty and that we'd discuss costs later. I emailed the shop as soon as I had all the details about the repair and called and have not heard back except the posts on this board and 1 email from Brian.
#40
#43
#44
Lets just say that Randy has been through the wringer lately.
First he destroys the test mule at the Gateway races. Then Todd, of White Roof Radio lets him convert Todd's street car into a race car with the help of other compeditors right there at the track. Then they have to tear all the race stuff off of it and return it to street car status.
Then there is the next race in West Virginia in 3 weeks. Who knows if he will be able to repair the test mule in time?
First he destroys the test mule at the Gateway races. Then Todd, of White Roof Radio lets him convert Todd's street car into a race car with the help of other compeditors right there at the track. Then they have to tear all the race stuff off of it and return it to street car status.
Then there is the next race in West Virginia in 3 weeks. Who knows if he will be able to repair the test mule in time?
#45