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Rust :: door sill area of '02-'05 MINIs

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Rust :: door sill area of '02-'05 MINIs

  #676  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:50 AM
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Just look at the pictures, which are of the sill of the hatch...
 
  #677  
Old 12-21-2017, 01:15 PM
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Well documented issues, check over at this link for other areas:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tailights.html

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...oper-rust.html
 
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  #678  
Old 12-22-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by veggivet View Post
Just look at the pictures, which are of the sill of the hatch...
My pictures are of the door sills.

Both sides rusted equally bad.

Dean.
 
  #679  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:18 AM
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On my newly acquired 2005 R53, I found 2 areas of rust (the car spent the first 6 years of its life in Canada):

1. Driver's side door, back lower edge: The paint was just starting to bubble, but once the body shop got a hold of it, they found that the cancer went pretty deep. They wound up cutting out a good chunk of metal and welding in a patch. Here's the bit they cut out:




2. right under the boot lid handle. You could see the paint bubbling there as well. This one wasn't as bad and they ground it down a bit, welded the edge to build up some metal, sanded, primed and painted to look like new. The rear hatch needed paint anyway, so it was time to get it done!



My first R53, Jango, had a bit of rust in the door seal area so I pulled the seal up before buying Rufus, the red JCW pictured above. There was a tad bit of rust staining under there, but nothing to worry about at all. Go figure!
 
  #680  
Old 04-04-2018, 12:31 PM
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I've found a few R53's for sale that meet my requirements, but nearly all have had door sill rust, some worse than others. I'm willing to fix minor spots, but generally won't even consider a car with any rust on it.

Having said that, I found a nice R53 that I'm interested in, but upon asking the owner to pull the sill seals, we found this (attached). The car has been a Southern car it's entire life, and dealer maintained the entire way; outstanding records.


What do you guys make of this? Bit of a silly question, as we're all just guessing, but it looks like someone tried to glue the sill seal onto the car. Pretty difficult to tell what's under there if anything.
 
Attached Thumbnails Rust :: door sill area of '02-'05 MINIs-mms_img1516794582097833112.jpg  
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  #681  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigChill View Post
I've found a few R53's for sale that meet my requirements, but nearly all have had door sill rust, some worse than others. I'm willing to fix minor spots, but generally won't even consider a car with any rust on it.

Having said that, I found a nice R53 that I'm interested in, but upon asking the owner to pull the sill seals, we found this (attached). The car has been a Southern car it's entire life, and dealer maintained the entire way; outstanding records.


What do you guys make of this? Bit of a silly question, as we're all just guessing, but it looks like someone tried to glue the sill seal onto the car. Pretty difficult to tell what's under there if anything.
It looks to me like soap from the car wash! Maybe some sort of calcification?
 
  #682  
Old 04-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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He said it felt like old rubber adhesive. Like I said, bit of a loaded question on my part. It looks as if the weather stripping was glued on at some point. Hard to tell if there's anything under there.
 
  #683  
Old 05-09-2018, 05:15 AM
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Thanks BigChill --- reading your recent comments about this issue put it on my radar, how you highlighted it as such a universal problem, even with cars from the south which usually don't rust in this manner.

Poor design, or "planned obsolescence" as suggested in one of the posts in this thread, either way it's a real drag.

I haven't read every single post in this massive thread and still don't know the source of water entry --- was it ever confirmed concretely where the water comes in at?

My car has a good bit of cosmoline that I've only just started removing, mostly the engine bay area, thankfully it scrapes off rather easily with a wood implement, and I curse the lax port-of-entry workers who neglected to remove it in the first place ,but I sure do wish that MINI would have saturated the pinch welds in the sill area as that would've at least helped a bit to repel moisture...


There are many remedies mentioned in this thread, but they all seem to be band-aids which don't address the recurring problem.

Regardless, I'm going to put a band-aid on mine and hope for the best --- sand to bare metal, paint, and seal with cavity wax.
 
  #684  
Old 05-09-2018, 05:29 AM
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source of water

From my investigation and observation, the water get under the rubber door seal and onto the seams on top of the sill where the door seal grabs onto. The mechanism is quite complex as it involves water running towards gravity on the vertical segments of the seal. When it reach the bottom horizontal segment some already wicked on to the vertical metal seam. When this seam transition from vertical to horizontal, the water just happily ride along the water slide like happy children, and takes up residence like the Portland homeless.

This water don't just sit there. It becomes a local scene loitering about, again like Portland homeless. Some starts to do damage to the community that host them. It also practice water's three states of being - liquid, vapour, and even solid.
 
  #685  
Old 05-09-2018, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
From my investigation and observation, the water get under the rubber door seal and onto the seams on top of the sill where the door seal grabs onto. The mechanism is quite complex as it involves water running towards gravity on the vertical segments of the seal. When it reach the bottom horizontal segment some already wicked on to the vertical metal seam. When this seam transition from vertical to horizontal, the water just happily ride along the water slide like happy children, and takes up residence like the Portland homeless.

This water don't just sit there. It becomes a local scene loitering about, again like Portland homeless. Some starts to do damage to the community that host them. It also practice water's three states of being - liquid, vapour, and even solid.

LOL!

Thanks for the smiles this morning, I needed a good chuckle!
I like your "water slide" description and that does indeed seem to be the case.

In my car on the passenger side it actually exhibited a "fourth state" which was a yucky and smelly milk-chocolate brown slime!
It was gross and unsettling and I wonder why the driver side was dry but the pass. side was so moist?
Both sides had the rust though.


I almost visited Portland back in 1998 when I went to southeast Alaska to work at a salmon cannery (I was a forklift driver) and my friend and I spent a month in Seattle before going, we spent most of the time hiking in the Olympia, but also camped out homeless-style for a week at Schmitz Preserve Park in west Seattle...

...anyway, later we met a cool neo-beatnik dude who was hopping a train down to Portland and told us that it was really easy and fun,
but we didn't go --and I've always regretted not hopping that train as I think it would have been a great experience.
 
  #686  
Old 05-14-2018, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Oldboy Speedwell View Post
Regardless, I'm going to put a band-aid on mine and hope for the best --- sand to bare metal, paint, and seal with cavity wax.
I would be cautious about sealing this area with cavity wax. The whole issue is that water becomes trapped and can't evaporate/dry. If you seal/fill the thin cavity between the two sandwiched pieces of sheet-metal, you'd better pack it full all the way to the bottom of the cavity, and do this to the entire pinch weld area, including the vertical areas of the door jamb.

If water is getting in the pinch weld from above, it will just travel down to the problem area inside the cavity, then settle and sit trapped beneath the cavity waxed areas, which is the whole problem.

Until we know exactly where the water is coming in (I'm not convinced that water is actually getting past the seal in the lower door sill area I.E. where the rust usually is) it's hard to make a plan of attack for stopping it. I feel like the best we can do right now is pull the strip after a wash/rain, and blow dry the area to evaporate any water stuck in the cavity.

One more tip: If you find this rust on your car, you need to also clean-out the weatherstripping seal. It will have rust inside the seal, so use compressed air, alcohol, and something thin (putty knife, small flathead wrapped in cloth, etc) to clean out any oxidation or rust crumbs that are inside the rubber seal.
 
  #687  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:20 AM
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I echo BigChill's words of caution. In addition to the scenario that I wrote about, there is one that I didn't think of, but my tongue and cheek remark of water's 3 states spawned the idea. It may just be from evaporation of water in the sill box section.

In just about all unibody cars the sill beam is a part of the drainage system. After rain and wash most water drips out from the drain holes on the underbody pinched and welded seam. Some that remain will sit inside the sill until evaporates from wind or just still air and some literally never. This water vapour will distribute everywhere there is air space, including right under the rubber door seal. The problem is the inverted V-pinch of the rubber seal do not allow this water vapour to escape. Eventually the paint protection is breached and rust forms.

I post a screen shot of the sill panels but it may take some time for NAM to digest as it hasn't show up yet.


 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 05-14-2018 at 08:30 AM.
  #688  
Old 05-14-2018, 08:31 AM
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Agreed. If water gets in that crease, any seal that prevents it from evaporating is bad ju-ju.

I wonder if by eliminating the upside down V-seal on the horizontal sill section, and instead using a solid seal on just the outer side of the sheet-metal (this would form a seal against the door but not over the cavity where water sits) if that would both keep water out of the car, and keep moisture from festering.

See the photo below: Green = the OEM seal.
Red = where you remove a section of the OEM seal, and replace with a seal that does not cover the cavity; instead it only runs along the side of the pinch weld/seam.
 
Attached Thumbnails Rust :: door sill area of '02-'05 MINIs-image_48bc9d35a18ded7b7c74b4bba3f3dbfe1f5eac04.png  
  #689  
Old 05-19-2018, 03:33 PM
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Hard cheese!

After reading y'alls posts I'm gonna scratch the cavity wax idea and just do the sand/paint/maintain method
as that seems the best bet for tackling this fatal design flaw.

I very much appreciate the insight and input.
 
  #690  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:35 AM
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I could could be 100% wrong, but it seems logical to me. It's tough to fix something when the root of the problem is unknown (where is water entering from typically?).
 
  #691  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:45 AM
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I am now quite convince the water is simply from evaporation of the water inside the sill and condensed at the top of the pitched and spot welded joints where the molding sits. The molding forms a roof where the condensed water as well as the vapour cannot escape. The little rust you see is only the tip of the iceberg.
 
  #692  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
...the little rust you see is only the tip of the iceberg.
>shudder<

Well,
at least we can say that BMW stayed true to the historical aspects!


>sad laugh<

The old Minis suffered this very same fate...

http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums...rust-pictures/



 
  #693  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
I am now quite convince the water is simply from evaporation of the water inside the sill and condensed at the top of the pitched and spot welded joints where the molding sits. The molding forms a roof where the condensed water as well as the vapour cannot escape. The little rust you see is only the tip of the iceberg.
This seems correct to me as well. I think that removing the horizontal section of OEM molding and creating a molding just along the outer side of the pinch weld is our best bet for allowing the water to escape AND preventing water from entering the door sill area.
 
  #694  
Old 05-22-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Oldboy Speedwell View Post
>shudder<

Well,
at least we can say that BMW stayed true to the historical aspects!


>sad laugh<

The old Minis suffered this very same fate...

http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums...rust-pictures/



I was being melodramatic when I said iceberg. I think it is just superficial rust under the molding. If you worry about that, you should worry more what is inside the sill box beam. Likely the sheet metal is zinc dipped, and has body cavity wax.

Classic mini is totally different. the sheet metal evaporates.
 
  #695  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:37 PM
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Hi, I am a new owner of a '07 R52s. I registered to the forum for maintenance and preventive information and ran across this. Sad to find this out!

I have a suggestion. I have seen people use ATF as a rust inhibitor. Many people swear by it. They take a small tube and insert it into the door through the window seal rubber and then inject in a cup or so of the ATF right into the door. The fluid then spreads around. you can lift the car with a jack at all four corners to make sure it spreads out all over. it does drain and seep out between the metal panels/seems etc. any holes should be taped off etc. so it has time to spread prior to draining. it can also be poured down rain drain channels through engine bays where water can collect etc. i will now be pulling up the door trim on my car and wiping a generous amount of ATF on the sills with a rag and then putting the trim back.

I didnt read through the entire thread but i will when i have more time. i'd like to know all the known issue areas so i can inject them or mist them or wipe them where ever i can access. I'm in California so it may not be that big of an issue but rust sucks! nothing kills the value of a car like rust except an accident!

im also going to buy one of those big duster things now so i can "dry wash" the car and avoid water whenever possible.
 
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:35 AM
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Just came across a rather odd Craigslist ad which features a Japanese R53 cut in half --- it offers a cutaway view of the sill:





Don't know if it's any real help though as I can't see anything obvious as to where moisture would be entering?

Original ad:
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/p...739707939.html

Archived ad:
http://www.craigslistadsaver.com/view.php?name=jdmmini



It seems like the R56 uses the same design:



Does the R56 also have the sill rust problems?
If not,
why not?
 
  #697  
Old 11-04-2018, 01:17 PM
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There is nothing unusual about the Mini's. Virtually all your consumer product automobiles with unibody construction share this commonality. Low cost box beams at the sill formed by the same sheet metal with robotic spot welds. They are then zinc dipped and modern sealant applied for reasonable rust protection for the duration of the planned longevity of the car in the worst geographies. What you don't see is how the rain water funneled into the box beam which is a part of the drainage system that they act like sewage channels .

Sometimes the drain hole formed by the bottom sheet metal can be clogged by organic matter like leaves, and that causes accelerated rust, especially in hot summer with winter snow.
 
  #698  
Old 11-04-2018, 02:44 PM
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ATF, like most oils, are hydroscopic, meaning they actually attract moisture. So oiling the seam is a short term fix.

I have been using 'Fluid Film' on the underbody/frame of my truck, which is wool oil specifically made for rust prevention.
 
  #699  
Old 11-04-2018, 03:19 PM
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My gramma teacher's ghost made me: Hygroscopic, not hydroscopic. I misspelled it for eons too.
 
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