Thanks guys. I still need to go get that Magazine and check it out. I am not planning on converting my MCS to E85. I just wanted to learn more about it, and what better way than to share ideas with my fellow Mini enthusiast. I still think this can and will be done eventually. I am sure gasoline prices will keep going up and E85 will be more inviting. Maybe 85% ethanol mix is too much and a mix of 30% ethanol will be more practical. Let’s keep these discussions up and see what happens.

BMW engineering is great, but I won’t bow down and worship them as gods. Maybe the 07 will be E85 compatable. This just takes someone brave enough to give it a try.



Convertion Ideas
----------------
large injectors
ECU tune or ECU piggy back system programed to release more fuel.
fuel pump?
check the fuel line compatability
coat the inside of the gasoline tank for protection?

 

First off it does take alot to convert to E85, every component must be corrosion resistant. The price diffrence is minimal and the day that the government removes the taxbreaks on the pumps and stations not to mention corporations the price will go up over that of gasoline.

Second....If you put E85 in your car you will destroy the fuel system. if you use it even a bit the effect of the contaminant will eat away at your non stainless components over time.

 

http://www.alldata.com/tsb/BMW/11412...106/index.html

 

The first ingredient would seem to be motivation, and since E85 currently costs the same as gasoline (at least in this country), I'm not sure where that would be coming from.

 

Hi all,
There is a lot of misinformation about E85 distributed by the folks who do "scientific studies" for the oil industry. Alcohol is a competitor. The disinformation about it taking more energy to produce E85 than it creates is real bunk. In addition to a series of poor assumptions, they also have done things like include the fuel for the tractors to plow the fields but ignore the energy used to transport oil through pipelines and around the world. What would happen if we also counted the fuel consumed in wars in the Middle East on the fossil fuel side of the balance beam? Vehicle manufacuters get big gas mileage credits for the e85 vehicles they produce, fleets within this county get environmental credits and nations get greenhouse gas credits.

By the way, I recently got an email from Saab investigating interest in a flex fuel Saab. Among the advantages them mentioned is that they could use their engine management system get more power bytaking advantage of the high octane.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I blend e85 with my gasolines. The MINI requires 91 octane, which is the octane of premium fuel in my area. I've been blending 1.5 gallons a tank with mid-grade (88 octane). Runs as good or better than premium. The Saab requires 93 octane, so I've been blending to a goal of 10% with premium. It has much better power than with premium. I haven't checked the gas mileage of the Saab but there is no noticible difference with the MINI. Warrenty is good because I just blend to 10%.

In the past I blended my 91 Honda Accord to 20%. A slight loss of fuel mileage, perhaps .5mpg, but no noticable difference in performance. No problems. My son has the car now and although he isn't blending fuel he has still had no related problems from my past abuse.

I have read articles about studiies done in Colorado . . . I think with a K car. Straight e85 burnt up that engine. I think it has to do with how the timing of the engine is controlled. But all should be aware that real abuse of e85 can destroy your engine quickly.
I live just two miles from a station with e10,e85 and b20.http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/findpane.asp

 

Just another note. There is nothing different between e85 and e10 except the amount of alcohol blended with the gasoline. If you blend gasoline with the proper proportion of e85 so that the tank has 10% alcohol and 90% gasoline, you have e10. Your warrenty is protected and your car and all of its components are absolutely safe . . . except your filler neck. Hey, but live free or die.

 

E85 is old tech. Remember "Gasohol".
There were lots of problems running gasohol, fuel lines, carb needles, fuel filters and the list goes on. Todays cars hardley use any of the materials that were used then, they may look the same but the metalergy is not. Rubber parts? Find me a real all rubber part. Yes there are some seals existing on modern cars that the alcohol will desolve but not many. Do you need stainless steel fittingsfor fuel delivery? Maybe. There is way too much hype about how to wreck your engine using alcohol. The additives in pump gas cause more problems than you think, the Mini, yo-yo, cold start, random CEL, to mention a couple.

E85 may not be prime time today but in months not years it will be.

Hey BlueBonnet, whats the deal with the filler neck??

 

I hate to get political, but thats what this whole debate about the how and cost of Ethanol production is all about.

Ten years ago Brazil mandated the conversion to ethanol and it has been a success. Primary production is from Sugar Cane.

Note*... high sugar content that naturally ferments.

In the US, the bulk of ethanol production has been funded by tax breaks and grants that have been written for and snatched up by the corn growers. Corn does not have anywhere near the sugar content of Cane (or sugar beets) and takes a lot more energy to produce ethanol.

Now the economcs/politics... How big is the largest cane producer in the country? Hmmm... I don't know as the industry has almost died off....

But I'm sure the names of Archer Daniels Midland Corporation (ADM ) and Cargill are easily recognized. After all, they are two of the largest agricultural companies in the world. Our government has been very good to them in the past ten years (Think: Haliburton of the ag industry). The US government has set up these two players the same way as they have protected the Oil companies. There will be no significant development or research funding unless it is done with corn.

That's why in Hawaii, our Republican Governor signed legislation that requires us to import, with no regard to cost, ethanol from the mainland, until the plants to produce it are built here. It has been said that it will take a minimum of two years. A secondary issue is the rate that prime growing land on the island is disappearing. Where are the local plants going to get more cane as the demand increases? Silly me, they'll supplement the supply with imports of the expensive stuff.

No worries, brah! We only have to pay for it!

 

E85 does not need to be made from corn or cane. Switch grass is the cheapest way to go. Corn may be the most expensive solution as it is very hard on the top soil & requires lots of chemicals.
FeedBack, with the cane production where you are E85 should be a no brainer. Politics as usual. You have to wonder what role big oil will play. Honda will market a hydrogen hybrid in 2010..... things should get interesting..

 

I just calculated my alcohol fuel level. 9.34% . . . wahoo!

I don't know what my octane level is. Midgrade 88 octane blended with e85 105 octane. I think the midgrade was $2.99 a gallon and the e85 $2.75 yesterday.

All of the subsidized ethanol plants in New Mexico closed after the subsidy ended. One has restarted based on straight demand. They use sorgum or millet . . . I can't remember which and I really don't know what they are.

The e85 in my tank is, therefore, locally produced. However, it is sent to Colorado and then blended with fuels from a depot there and trucked back to New Mexico.

I mention the fuel neck as a problem for in tank blending because it is the only place where straight e85 comes into contact with car parts. I don't know how the fuel neck is connected in the MINI but many cars use a rubber like neck section to allow the tank to disconnect easily. There is usually a rubber like gasket at the top as well. I don't know if the materials used in the MINI are subseptable or not.

 

The information I posted was NOT done by oil compaines. It was an article done by popular mechanics, which is very friendly toward inovation.

It is fact that gallon for gallon, ethanol produces less energy than gasoline. The price is still reletively the same and is only competitive because of the subsidies and tax breaks!

last time I checked milk costs more per gallon than gas and it can't possibly cost more to go from cow to market as research, extract, trasport, refinement of gasoline

Im not sure I get your point......But I think I agree

Make no mistake....energy is big buisness, and If you are one of these people who are so worried about how much money someone else is making, then you are only choosing to line the pockets of ADM and Cargill....rather than exxon or mobil.....So quit thinking that ethanol is a solution.

ethanol is ethanol....its corrosive and absorbs water. if you have any percent it will begin to degrade your non stainless components! just at a slower rate....ten years of bluebonnets amatuer chemistry will have you replacing components ...guarnteed....E85 will just do it quickly....E10 will take many years

 

Another thing to consider if part of the reason you want to decrease dependance on foreign oil is that (according to what I've heard) foreign crude oil is less expensive than domestic crude oil. If an oil company needs less raw material (crude oil) they normally reduce the higher price supplier. In this case, they would reduce consumption of domestic crude.

If they did this, the total comsuption of crude would go down, but the percentage of oil that was imported crude would go up.

We would still have the domestic crude in reserve, so I guess that's a good thing.

 

ethanol very well could be a solution in the future, but until the ridiculous farm subsidies quit propping it up, its hard to argue that its economically viable yet, especially considering that its currently not even WITH them. Thermodynamically feasible, MAYBE, my intuition says yes, but significant technological advance is necessary in the refining process before it will be anywhere near economically viable. There is hope though, in that as volume increases, economies of scale are bound to help out, its a bit early to be sure either way. . .

what are the polution consequences of ethanol, anybody know? Does it still produce the same hydrocarbon emmissions and such? Carbon monoxide? Sorry, I'm an ME, not a chemist. . .

 

A bit off topic for "can you convert an MCS to run E85", but I wanted to share my two cents on ethanol.

First off, several people have complained about ag subsidies. Let's remember that we get those tax dollars back every time we go to the grocery store or restaurant. The average family in the U.S. spends 14% of its income on food, which is the lowest in the world by a long shot. Most European countries spend around 23% and countries like China spend a whopping 46% of their income to feed themselves.

Don't discount the extreme economical importance of a stable food supply. Through these subsidies we have the safest and most stable food supply in the world. Imagine living in a nation where our food supply is literally built on supply and demand. That means no/very minimal surplus production each year. What would happen if there was a large scale drought (remember 1988)? Without a large surplus of grain, we would need to depend on foreign markets to supply us. You want expensive food? Imagine competing in the open market of the world to secure a food supply of enough magnitude to feed our nutrient-rich lifestyles. Not to mention the collapse of the current farming infrastructure as a result of the drought (i.e. money has been spent on inputs like seed, fertilizer, herbicides, land and enerygy but there is no crop to harvest and use to pay these debts off.)

Furthermore, these subsidies have allowed for rapid technological advancement in agriculture over the last 40 years. In just a couple of generations we have gone from more than 30% of the population involved directly with farming to now having less than 2% of the population involved in production agriculture. This frees up a large chunk of our work force to focus on other areas for economic advancement (think disposable income). Afterall, our economy is based on people buying too much useless crap they don't need. Which means we need people to design that crap, manufacture that crap, market that crap and then sell that crap.

Finally, I want to comment on the discussion surrounding the energy efficiencies of ethanol production. There is one very significant fact about the corn used in ethanol production that is constantly overlooked. People always say it takes X amount of energy to produce the grain that is used in ethanol production. This is true. But the corn that is used for ethanol production is then used for its original intent - feeding livestock (with no signifant loss in nutritional content). So it is completely inaccurate to attribute 100% of the energy used to produce the crop to ethanol since this grain was ALREADY being produced for livestock usage. There is certainly some additional energy used (transporting grain to and from ethanol plant, the power to run the plant, transporting the ethanol out of the plant etc), but clearly not 100% of the energy consumed in crop production should be attributed to ethanol.

One last thought. For those who have been keeping up with what the big oil companies are doing, you know that Shell and Texaco have ramped up extraction of petroleum from the oil sands in Canada. This is raw petroleum that is trapped in sand deposits (think black sludge). The petroleum can be extracted after mixing with copius amounts of water and then boiling for several hours. The energy pay off on this is approximately 2.2 galllons of fuel created per gallon used.

The scarier part is Shell is now back in Colorado looking at the oil shale deposits. This is oil trapped in shale over 3,000 feet below ground. Extraction requires drilling down below, mounting huge furnaces/burners and then cooking the oil out of the shale. For 2 years! After 2 years the oil is ready for harvesting. Energy payoff? 1.4 gallons of fuel produced for every 1 gallon consumed. Shell is actively pursuing this and expects to begin drilling for the furnaces sometime in 2007.

The take home is this:

Cheap oil is gone.
Demand exceeds supply.
All legitamate petroleum alternatives should be seriously considered and pursued, ethanol being one of them.

My two cents.

NTHUSIAST

 

That is a function of our income not the cost of food....I guarantee the cost of food is less in China...but is still a higher percent of their meager incomes.

Dont confuse the family farm with the corporate companies. Nobody is really concered about CRP programs...etc....The subsidies and tax breaks at issue here are those related to ethanol production. and that if those were removed the food supply is not at issue....the price to produce a gallon of ethanol would soar far above that of gasoline!

subsidies to john deere might spur tech development....But subsidies to agriculture itself only keeps the food supply stable as you say

I have seen nothing that would indicate to me that such a gross generalization is how they calculate the cost. The information I provided says 53 bushels of corn and half a barrel of crude to "refine" ethanol.....To me the calculation is derived by how many ounces of eth are derived per bushel and the simple energy required to groduce a single gallon of ethanol

and this is because there are people who block every attempt to extract the resources that we already posess! like ANWAR. or florida coast.

So how does this relate to topic.....EASY

IMO...Converting a MINI or any car to run E85 is a waste of time and money.....and have explained that position in great detail now. If you are concerned about reducing what it costs you to drive or reducing depenence on oil..... move closer to work!

 

Originally Posted by planeguy

"That is a function of our income not the cost of food....I guarantee the cost of food is less in China...but is still a higher percent of their meager incomes."

That's why I used percentages and not dollar amounts. While our economy does have a higher level of discretionary income, my point is that much of that discretionary income is because food is so cheap when compared to the other items we purchase. Countries like Japan that have very strong economies still spend nearly 30% of their income on food. England spends nearly 22%. I just think it's important for people to see that the tax dollars spent on farm subsidies aren't dollars down a rat hole.


Originally Posted by planeguy

"The subsidies and tax breaks at issue here are those related to ethanol production. and that if those were removed the food supply is not at issue....the price to produce a gallon of ethanol would soar far above that of gasoline!"

And what would happen if these companies didn't get any of their subsidies to help them absorb the costs of needed research and development? Would they just accept reduced/negative profit levels? Or would "evil giants" like ADM and Cargill simply turn around and pass the buck to the growers they are purchasing inputs from? The ripple affect would be huge.

It's imprtant to remember how interconnected everyone in the ag industry is. From the local farmer, to the equipment manufacture, to the chemical companies, to the seed companies to the ADM/Cargills of the world. It's a complex web, with each part depending on the other in order to work. Each group needs to generate a profit in order to continue fulfilling the other's need - if one piece falls apart, the economic ecosystem collapses.

Originally Posted by planeguy

"subsidies to john deere might spur tech development....But subsidies to agriculture itself only keeps the food supply stable as you say"

And what does John Deere do with these technologies? They sell it to producers. These producers depend on subsidies in order to afford technologies like this. Furthermore, companies like John Deere get no more subsidies or government help than any of the other corporate entities inside, or outside of ag. Take a look at the airline industry. Subsidies are used by the government to help stabilized very criticial elements of our economy.

Originally Posted by planeguy
"I have seen nothing that would indicate to me that such a gross generalization is how they calculate the cost. The information I provided says 53 bushels of corn and half a barrel of crude to "refine" ethanol.....To me the calculation is derived by how many ounces of eth are derived per bushel and the simple energy required to groduce a single gallon of ethanol"

I went back and looked at the information you posted previously and from what I can see, the data is even simpler than that. The data is saying that 4.5 barrels of crude (refined into gas) produces the same energy as 1/2 barrel of crude and 53 bushels of corn (that is refined into E85). This data is not commenting on the energy efficiency of ethanol production itself.

My point was not that YOUR data was attributing 100% of grain production energy cost to ethanol. My point is that when data is used to examine the efficiencies of ethanol production, the purposeful ommissions/assumptions I mentioned previously tend to be made.

Originally Posted by planeguy

"IMO...Converting a MINI or any car to run E85 is a waste of time and money.....and have explained that position in great detail now. If you are concerned about reducing what it costs you to drive or reducing depenence on oil..... move closer to work!"

First off, I live 6 miles from work. I agree with you 100% on the shorten your drive mentallity. I have a brother-in-law that works in the suburbs of Chicago and now lives across the Wisconsin state line. He drives 64 miles each way, 5 days a week. In a 1998 Blazer. And he has the nerve to complain about gas prices . . . .

As for anyone converting their vehicle to E-85, why not? Many of us on this site spend money and time making our cars accelerate quicker and handle better. Do we NEED to shave off .4 seconds on our 0 - 60 time? Do we need to pull that extra .04 g in the corner? No, but it makes us happy so we do it.

Same thing with E-85 (and hybrids) for that matter. Will it eventually save you big bucks? Doubtful. Will it end our dependance on foreign oil? Not likely. But if it makes someone happy to know that they are choosing to support a fledgling industry in an attempt to eventually shape the world more towards what they envision, why should they be denied or even discouraged?

I have a friend who drives a Prius. Do you know what his favorite thing about the car is? He loves driving it as efficiently as possible. He resets the computer at each fill up, and he spends the entire tank trying to squeeze every last tenth of a mile out of it. He knows all his "highest scores." He views it as a video game that he plays whenever he is commuting to work. He loves it, and why shouldn't he? It makes him happy.

Do I need to crap all over it and tell him he would save more money and burn less fuel with a Golf TDI? What good would that possibly do?

Not trying to pick a fight here, just wanted to clarify a couple of points. As a farm kid from the midwest who now works for an ad agency that specializes in agricultural work, I consider myself fairly well versed in the ag world and ethanol production specifically.

 

Not to get offtopic but how do you use corn to make ethanol and feed cattle at the same time????

 

"Not to get offtopic but how do you use corn to make ethanol and feed cattle at the same time????" No surplus.
Dairy, beef & pork, here in the USA, are all great buys compared to anywhere in the world but buy a box of special k....it cost as much as prime filet per#. How much does a pound of hamburger realy cost... with the subsidies? 35 years ago I saw an entire dairy industry desolve as a result of coorprate agra ( 1 of the largest in New England ).
Alcohol is not prime time yet. However, it could be soon.
Hey BlueBonnet, I don't think there would be a problem with the filler neck, checked it out yesterday.

 

No, The low percentage of income that food is for us is because we have very high incomes. not because of the low cost of food. Thats why I said a piece of cow here, pound for pound, dollar for dollar is much cheaper in china.


Well, demand would drive research.....subsidies only support systems that would fail in the free market. The whole system only collapses when after decades of govt. hand holding they let go. expecting the grown child who still sucks his thumb to make it in the world. you mentioned airlines....a fine example! Since I work in that area. the best thing that could have happened after 9/11 was for about half the airlines to go completely broke....There are too many companies, getting to small of the pie, for such a capital intensive industry, would we have sold less planes and laid off more people....yes, in the short run.....But the well built and well run companies that survived would be buying more planes today.

I dont think so....each stalk, each bushel yields a certain amount of ethanol, they just add up the amounts. and the energy it takes to heat and extract eth.... Are you saying that they can still feed cattle from the stalks after they have been processed for ethanol production?

right on.....Im not saying you cant live far away....just dont complain about gas prices.....I heard someone say on the radio the other day..."I will believe that gas prices are changing driving patterns when parents start making thier kids ride the bus and stop jamming up the streets in front of the schools dropping them off"

yeah, I agree....Everything is just priority and comprimise. You can't have everything so what do you choose today? When prices change so do your choices.....So, I rearely ever see a reason to complain... I have the same attitude toward mods....Great, if thats what you want to do....but dont complain that you voided your warranty. You knew the deal, and choose the trade-off.

Now the prius people that a diffrent story.....those who try to drive effeciently are THE classic example of spending a dollar to save a dime. First off the spend more on the car in the first place, they get marginally better milage.....and the biggest thing they just never understand...........Congestion and sitting in traffic is what kills milage and effeciency....The HIGHER your average speed between two points, the more traffic can flow through those points, our roads are already packed, by driving like an old woman....people just cause more congestion and more stop and go, the more people drive by slowly accelerating and coasting all the time the more congestion will occour

 

That's what I can't follow. Once you process for ethanol the nutritional value of the corn is gone and you can't possibly use it for cattle feed post processing.

 

Originally Posted by Rastven

"Not to get offtopic but how do you use corn to make ethanol and feed cattle at the same time????"

Admittedly, this is over-simplified, but . . . .
Corn is sent to an ethanol plant where it is milled and then mixed with water, heated some and then allowed to ferment. The fermentation yeilds ethanol as the starches/sugars are converted. The ethanol is seperated from the mixture through a distilling process.

At which point the milled grain is then seperated out and sent to feed livestock as it still has it's protein/oil content (Which is what the livestock guys are really after).

In other words, the byproduct of ethanol is left over milled grain which is still used as a viable feed after the process.



Originally Posted by stevecars60

"Dairy, beef & pork, here in the USA, are all great buys compared to anywhere in the world but buy a box of special k....it cost as much as prime filet per#. How much does a pound of hamburger realy cost... with the subsidies?"

If you break out the costs of what it takes to get each box of cereal produced and on the shelf, I assure you that the grain purchase price is insignificant. Milling, processing, work force, packaging, advertsiing and greasing the wheels of the distributuion/retail network is where your real costs come in. A box of Special K probably has around 20 to 30 cents worth of grain. An entire bushel of corn costs less than $3.00.

Your question on the hamburger front is interesting. As you mentioned beef/pork/dairy are great buys here, but I'm not sure anyone has ever totalled up all of the various subsidies that would go into a pound of hamburger, plus the cost of the hamburger at the store itself.

But after spending some time in various parts of Europe during the mad cow scare, watching the burning piles of flesh from hoof & mouth diseased herds on tv and now the Avian flu, I think I'm ok with paying a premium to the government if it helps ensure a safe food supply.

Now that we have officially de-railed the original purpose of this thread . . .

 

Wheeee. Well, I agree it would be purposeless to convert a MINI to e85. I found it most useful to use e10 when my vehicles had compatable octane requirements and expermented with blending e85 up to 20% with no apparent ill effects to an older honda accord. At work we have two e85 vehicles . . . the Tahoe which is a couple of years older certainly doesn't gain from the experience. The Ford pickup, new, runs great on e85 and the owners manual says it will run better on e85 than on gasoline as it was built for e85. Staff resist paying any attention or being bothered with thought and effort (going to a specific gas station, using a specific pump).

Flexible fuel vehicles, by the way, were the fleet manager's solution to federal requirements to convert a portion (large . . . varying by fleet classification (local, state, federal) and time). A loophole in the federal law gave credit for flexible fuel vehicles but only required them to be fueled with e85 if it was available. So the law which was designed to build infrastructure ended up assuring that e85 infrastructure wouldn't be built.

I know of one organization which has 500 e85 vehicles and no fuel availability. Just now, with gas at $3 a gallon has that organization made a decision to seek funding to build a fueling facility.

But opionions, fed by contradictory information, run strong. Live and let live. I enjoy using e85, by blending it to 10% in my MINI and Saab. With the MINI I've been blending with mid-grade. For the Saab, with a recommened octane level of 93, I've been blending with premium. I think there are performance gains in both vehicles. I am confident they are less polluting (oxygenated fuel). I observe no gas mileage decrease at the 10% level despite the small reduction of btus in the fuel.

I'll have my fun.

Oh, Steve, glad to hear your opinion on the filler neck. Hope you didn't get your nose stuck or anything.

 

"Now that we have officially de-railed the original purpose of this thread . . "
NTHUSIAST, not realy. This is a good post & big picture is important.
Grease cars, used cooking oil is not realy a huge resource.. we have a few around here... they do smell good though
Bio-fuels, might be the real future, this would depend on the political inviroment. There are plenty of subsidies to grow nothing & surplus of grain that is stored then destroied when it can't be sold or used.
Bottom line, we will use oil for years to come. Untill there is leadership that has an energy plan that can reduce oil dependency in the near future. For now the only alternative is E85. There is a ton of money the centeral government & the states collect from gas sales. 2010 Honda will market a hydrogen hybred. If this is the future, big oil, the states & the centeral government stand to loose big time so there is no insentive to change.
In the mean time, this is a great place to look at possibile alternatives & how they benifet our interests.

 

And the driving popuation must understand that cheap oil and foregin oil dependence are mutually exlusive options! That is why I hope that gas becomes $5+ a gal, because other options do become viable at that point, and we can be energy independant. and this of utmost importance because by 2016 china alone will consume more oil than the entire current output

And that was the point in this thread.... is that until gasoline becomes more expensive there is no reason to convert to E85 .....It is still cheaper to run gasoline at $3 a gal.....but if gas goes over say $5 or $6 then the cost to run e85 actally is lower....e85, biodisel and electric become the cheapest options, hydrogen is still around $11 GGE so we have a way to go

 

The biggest problem here in the US is we need cars. Unlike europe, where people live in vilages, towns & cities where public transport works, we live in spread out areas where, in most cases, you need a car. This is not an option for some.
Planeguy, converting to E85, for most part, is not a good idea... for me the nearest E85 pump is 92 miles away & since E85 is not as efficent as good old 93 I'd burn better than half a tank to & from. However I'm game to try it, a couple of gallons anyway. After many years of running alcohol, straight or mixed, I have been able to get some big dyno numbers.
Bottom line this is quite a delema. Did I spell that right?? Most of the not too well off have cars that should be crushed. They spend a ton on gas to get to work while the well off drive their new Prius.. that would be PC correct. I still drive my 68 Triumph TR6C motorcycle, 38mpg tops, can't count the Co, hydro, when it starts it's the equal of 90 cars ( or close to ) PC? Not.... I don't drive it much, however. Did I mention it's loud, not 103ci Harley loud. $5 to $6 a gallon might wake a few people up, the important people, but I don't think they have a clue... I'll bet all their DVD & VCR's are all blinking...