Magnussen-Moss Act Lawsuit
#26
08-27-2005, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by trico
1FSTMINI you are absolutely right. I have been a trial lawyer for over twenty years.
Should one prevail, and even with a sweetheart deal with an attorney on attorney's fees and the recovery of "reasonable attorney's fees" (the courts do not equate "reasonable attorney's fees" with the attorney's fees actually charged. In most cases the attorney's fees recovered do not equal all of the attorney's fees the client incurred and is obligated to pay), the fees, costs and expenses of the lawsuit will ultimately exceed the out of pocket loss. Thus, it would have been less expensive just to have the problem fixed outside of the warranty.
From a financial perspective, there is no way to win this lawsuit. If it is prosecuted on the basis of "principle" and the attorney has no problem with that, get a different lawyer since he or she is only in the case to bill you. Even then, most counsel won't take the case because when out of pocket attorneys' fees, costs and expenses before trial exceed $10,000.00, on a $1,000.00 fix it will no longer be a matter of principle - it'll be "those damn lawyers" and the financially reckless client will now focus his or her ire on the attorney.
I'm sure Skiploder means well, but six months from now expect the "I told you so" thread.
Should one prevail, and even with a sweetheart deal with an attorney on attorney's fees and the recovery of "reasonable attorney's fees" (the courts do not equate "reasonable attorney's fees" with the attorney's fees actually charged. In most cases the attorney's fees recovered do not equal all of the attorney's fees the client incurred and is obligated to pay), the fees, costs and expenses of the lawsuit will ultimately exceed the out of pocket loss. Thus, it would have been less expensive just to have the problem fixed outside of the warranty.
From a financial perspective, there is no way to win this lawsuit. If it is prosecuted on the basis of "principle" and the attorney has no problem with that, get a different lawyer since he or she is only in the case to bill you. Even then, most counsel won't take the case because when out of pocket attorneys' fees, costs and expenses before trial exceed $10,000.00, on a $1,000.00 fix it will no longer be a matter of principle - it'll be "those damn lawyers" and the financially reckless client will now focus his or her ire on the attorney.
I'm sure Skiploder means well, but six months from now expect the "I told you so" thread.
#27
08-27-2005, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by whovous
Were I a consumer looking for a lawyer to take a MM case, I'd ask that lawyer to agree to accept as a fee the "reasonable" amount awarded by the court. I'd still expect to pay if I lost, of course, but there should certainly be ways to protect myself from losing money even if I win.
#28
08-27-2005, 09:38 PM
#29
08-27-2005, 10:02 PM
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It's called a retainer. We ask for it up front against fees and it is your obligation to keep it current. A lawyer can give you a ballpark for what they think it will eventually cost, however, in litigation I know of none that will guarantee the cost. If you are thinking your lawyer will work on a contingency fee in a low damages MM case you are seriously mistaken.
#31
08-27-2005, 11:33 PM
#32
08-28-2005, 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by trico
It's called a retainer. We ask for it up front against fees and it is your obligation to keep it current. A lawyer can give you a ballpark for what they think it will eventually cost, however, in litigation I know of none that will guarantee the cost. If you are thinking your lawyer will work on a contingency fee in a low damages MM case you are seriously mistaken.
I also found lemonlawamerica.com, which is a directory of lawyers and lemon laws across the USA, which seems to offer more of the same.
Are any of these people any good? Hard to say with a five minute Google search. However, the idea that no one can find a consumer oriented lawyer who doesn't want an arm and leg upfront seems, to me, to be unfounded.
Did the original writer do any of this? I dunno. Does he have any obligation to tell us what he is paying his lawyer. Of course not. I am just saying it can be done, whether you know of such people or not. There are a lot of lawyers out there, and neither you nor I know all of them.
Last edited by whovous; 08-28-2005 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Cleaned up font mess (I hope!)
#33
08-28-2005, 11:39 AM
#34
08-28-2005, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by UKSUV
Go after BMWNA for all the 3-Series guys like me who have rear subframe damage that BMW knows is defective and won't cover it. They actually cover it in AG but not here in NA.
#35
08-28-2005, 01:46 PM
With all of the speculation about what an attorney should do regarding fees in a M-M litigation, I wonder if anyone on NAM has actually pursued a M-M litigation from start to finish???? I tend to doubt that the attorney did the case on contingency...; but I would love to be proven wrong. Anyone out there???? Remember, you must have actually filed a M-M complaint and taken it to a completed trial.
#36
08-28-2005, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by C4
When you modify a car with aftermarket parts, you are doing so at your own risk of losing the warranty coverage. I would think it is unfair for a car manufacturer to cover owners of cars that have seen such modifications while other owners choose not to do so in order to protect the warranty.
You took a gamble and you lost. Face up to the consequences of your actions where it hurts the most (The wallet).
You took a gamble and you lost. Face up to the consequences of your actions where it hurts the most (The wallet).
This has nothing to do with my mods. The problem that arose is a known fault with 02 and 03s and deals with a component of the car not touched or changed by my modifications. The dealer was on their way to diagnosing the problem and fixing it under warranty when BMW told them to stop.
Glad to see you take the side of BMW even when they are wrong - screw federal law!
#37
08-29-2005, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Skiploder
...Until then, I fight.
#39
08-29-2005, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by caminifan
Just out of curiousity, how are the other owners of the company reacting to your decision to charge the cost of the litigation to the company? I hope that the company is privately held; if it isn't (in particular, if it is publicly traded), you have got much more serious problems than a simple denial of warranty issue with BMW/MINI. Can we say Sarbanes-Oxley????
Let's get one thing straight - the cost of the repair is definately manageable. The issue isn't $$$$$$$$ - it's principle.
Are you all ready to have warranty service on your car completely denied because you installed a CAI? Or a catback exhaust? Or a freaking set of lowering springs? Or because someone other than the dealer has worked in your engine bay?
One of the reasons I am pursuing this is because BMW refuses to even diagnose an electrical problem with my car when the only electrical work done to it has been performed by the Dealer! For the last time: they are denying warranty service on my car because they have not performed all of the work under the hood. They are further contradicting themselves by directing me to return my car 100% to stock before they will look at it.
This isn't the first piece of doody BMW product I've owned and it isn't the first time I've thrown down with them. It will be the last.
I love my MCS, but I hold no illusions as to the type of product BMW produces or the lousy post-coital service they offer.
#40
08-29-2005, 04:44 AM
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Just out of curiosity, how did BMW find out your Mini is modded if the dealer didn't tell them? Sounds like the dealer saying, "we really wanted to fix it, but BMW wouldn't let us" while stabbing you in the back. Many dealers have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on mods so that they can keep the business.
#41
08-29-2005, 05:00 AM
Well im at work today looking thru service bulletins and found one concerning this issue.........It seems on vehicles produced from 12/7/04 up to 6/22/05 Mini r52/r53 cooper s with f21 automatic trans has a wiring problem.
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
#42
08-29-2005, 05:02 AM
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After I received the news from the Dealer, I subscribed to a TSB service for the car and saw this same thing. Hence the call to the men in black..........
Originally Posted by 1FSTMINI
Well im at work today looking thru service bulletins and found one concerning this issue.........It seems on vehicles produced from 12/7/04 up to 6/22/05 Mini r52/r53 cooper s with f21 automatic trans has a wiring problem.
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
#44
08-29-2005, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Veni_Vidi_Vici
Just out of curiosity, how did BMW find out your Mini is modded if the dealer didn't tell them? Sounds like the dealer saying, "we really wanted to fix it, but BMW wouldn't let us" while stabbing you in the back. Many dealers have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on mods so that they can keep the business.
At that point they were told to not spend any more time on the car as they would not be reimbursed by BMW.
#46
08-29-2005, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 1FSTMINI
Well im at work today looking thru service bulletins and found one concerning this issue.........It seems on vehicles produced from 12/7/04 up to 6/22/05 Mini r52/r53 cooper s with f21 automatic trans has a wiring problem.
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
Your car might not fall into this guide line but there is a known issue as you can see and this doesnt mean other cars arent affected.
Service action bulletin number SI M12 07 05
SITUATION - Due to incorrect routing of the engine wiring harness, cable sheathing and the line insulation mat be chaffed causing various electrical problems. blah blah blah
There alot more but its not needed to put down....Its a simple fix and i dont understand why they wouldnt help you and do it.
crimp this, splice that..DONE
http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/08/...rvice_campaign
Pay attention to the post from the guy who was denied engine wiring harness repairs due to his aftermarket CAI.
Let's Motor!
#47
08-29-2005, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Skiploder
This isn't the first piece of doody BMW product I've owned and it isn't the first time I've thrown down with them.
Gee, d'ya think maybe it's them (BMW) just calling in "a little payback" on ya? I've got tons of mods on my '03 MCS, and the dealer has never batted an eyelash... In fact, THEY ask ME how I LIKE them!!
From what I've seen, it's pretty much a dealership-by-dealership decision as to what they will cover and what they won't.
Seems someone (regional BMW Rep perhaps?) doesn't appreciate you 'throwing down with them before' and wants to make an example of you? Like, whan he saw your name come across his desk he decided to dig in the 'ol heels?
Good luck - but don't let it make you crazy, man....life too short, eh?
#49
08-29-2005, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mburchill36
Gee, d'ya think maybe it's them (BMW) just calling in "a little payback" on ya? I've got tons of mods on my '03 MCS, and the dealer has never batted an eyelash... In fact, THEY ask ME how I LIKE them!!
From what I've seen, it's pretty much a dealership-by-dealership decision as to what they will cover and what they won't.
Seems someone (regional BMW Rep perhaps?) doesn't appreciate you 'throwing down with them before' and wants to make an example of you? Like, whan he saw your name come across his desk he decided to dig in the 'ol heels?
Good luck - but don't let it make you crazy, man....life too short, eh?
From what I've seen, it's pretty much a dealership-by-dealership decision as to what they will cover and what they won't.
Seems someone (regional BMW Rep perhaps?) doesn't appreciate you 'throwing down with them before' and wants to make an example of you? Like, whan he saw your name come across his desk he decided to dig in the 'ol heels?
Good luck - but don't let it make you crazy, man....life too short, eh?
Sincere thanks for the advice. It isn't bothering me. The car is not a daily driver and if we have to, we can perform the fix ourselves for a fraction of the dealer's rate.
Knock on wood, with the exception of a uniformly elevated idle the car is driving like a champ. I tracked the car a week ago and it performed beautifully. Just this last weekend, I ran it down to Yosemite down the length of Highway 49 and it tore up the canyons.
#50
08-29-2005, 01:45 PM