This is just a random theoretical question to you engine guys. Do you guys think it would be possible to fit a hybrid engine inside a MINI without increasing the dimensions?

I'm just wondering if I can hold out hope for a future Mini that is a hybrid. Kinda like I'm holding out hope for them to upgrade the firmware for the stereo on the 05s so that my MP3 id3 tags to be displayed.

 

Amen to that.

 

[QUOTE=greven]This is just a random theoretical question to you engine guys. Do you guys think it would be possible to fit a hybrid engine inside a MINI without increasing the dimensions?

I'm just wondering if I can hold out hope for a future Mini that is a hybrid. Kinda like I'm holding out hope for them to upgrade the firmware for the stereo on the 05s so that my MP3 id3 tags to be displayed.

JUst follow this simple plan;

 

I'd guess that it would be tough. Even if you can fit a power plant in under the hood, where would the batteries go? Especially in the Carbrio.... The trunk is tiny to start with.....

But given enough money, I saw a link or a thread on all wheel drive being tested by Getrag.....

The same thought on hybrid conversion struck me as well. The sound of the new Honda Accord hybrid power plant in an old mustang will make ford die-hard cringe, and technologiest very interested...... :smile:

Matt

 

The short answer is that current true hybrid technology would not fit the small dimensions of the mini. A full hybrid has both a gasoline engine as well as electric motors powered by the battery pack. It runs as a pure electric up to 30 mph or so, then the gas engine kicks in. The fuel economy gains are derived from both the electric-only cycle, as well as the fact that most true hybrids are paired with a smaller gas engine than their gas only counterparts. I don't think the MINI's wheelbase could accomodate the size of a battery pack.

A mild hybrid ( such as the Honda) uses the electric motor to supplement the power of the gas engine only, and never runs as an electric vehicle only. Fuel economy is enhanced, but not to the same extent as full hybrids.

It is a misconception that a hybrid power system is devoid of performance. If the electric motors are additive in power instead of replacement power for a smaller gas engine, a hybrid can actually be a high performance vehicle. It just depends on how the electric power is used. Lexus, for example, have toyed with using hybrid power to supplement their gas engine on certain platforms, so instead of, say, 'just' a 260hp V6, their platform would have maybe 400 total hp, with the addition of the electric motors.

I'm not an engineer, and my descriptions are probably lacking, but hope this gets the basic idea across. There are more permutations, for example common rail diesel as part of a full hybrid system, but I'm trying to keep this within my nonengineer knowledge. Hopefully the engineers will kick in on this discussion.

 

We also own a Honda Insight so I'll give you my take... The idea of a hybrid is to allow the use of a smaller ICE (internal combustion engine) with an electic motor assist. The smaller ICE will get better mileage and the electric would help the acceleration so you don't miss a larger engine.

The main problem with making a MINI hybrid is the same as making any old car a hybrid - your not really going to increase the mileage that much. The true hybrids (Insight, Prius) were designed from the start with a low drag coefficient. The Insight is a .26Cd and the MINI is .36. The MINI is a brick comparatively. Also, there are many concessions and driving techniques you have to get used to in a hybrid. Most people aren't willing to accelerate slow and always know the battery state if charge.

The hybrids from Ford, etc are probably much easier to drive but that's because it's a regular car that a hybrid system was put into. The gas mileage increase would not be nearly as high as if the car was designed from the start as a hybrid.

I'm not saying that it can't or shouldn't be done but it just seems better sense that a hybrid should be designed for maximum mileage and the MINI just doesn't seem to be the right platform.

 

best to hope for a fuel-cell, or Diesel version, I knwo mini has one but I'd love to see a turbo deisel to rival the VW's ones in a mini, they can kick around upwards of 50+mpg if they wanted to make them,,, and you can make bio-diesels eco freindly... all of this of course will happen one day, when we run ourt of oil for good. :(

 

Hybrids are mostly a scam! Not that much of improved gas mileage, costly to buy and eventually maintain and in some cases, rescuers run the risk to be electrocuted when reaching for victimis trapped inside a hybrid vehicle:


http://www.wpri.com/Global/story.asp...1&nav=F2DTTIVi

Hybrid gas mileage falls short:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in620265.shtml

Interesting technology but it is mostly a stop gap until better alternative fuel technologies are developed or become available.

 

[QUOTE=Cooper4us]Hybrids are mostly a scam! QUOTE]

I cannot agree at all. Several reasons:

1) I'm sure the firt cars were more expensive than horses, and there were those that said that cars weren't better because the cost per unit was different. Your comparing an technology at infancy with a mature one. Disruptive technologies rarely start at a lower cost, unless they have much lower value, but that's only to start. The first VWs were cheap (made them disruptive), but no luxury or serious sport could be had. Now, we have the we drive can a small car, that is sporty and luxurious, and this forum is dedicated to one! While the hybrid technolgy is just starting, it is a cost adder for sure, but the volumes are low, with no economy of scale to speak of.

2) They hybrids were being offered are *** backwards! Instead of mostly internal combustion with slight electric boost, it should be exactly the opposite! Electric motors have much better driving properties (like full torque at 0 rpm etc), but the range is an issue. You could run a very small direct inject diesle to charge the batteries, and provide additional current if needed (not a lot, a few % over what a battery and cap bank could deliver) and get range and performance.
If you'r interested in this approach, I think UPS is codeveloping a new delivery van with this tech, as it was shown to be more fuel efficient than what we're doing now.
This also speaks to the article of hybrids not living up to milage figures. (Not that this article realy needs an answer, it's just saying take the EPA numbers with the same grian of salt you do with standard cars!) With a small ICE running a generator, not a drive line, it can always run at max efficiency (fixed RPM). The ones now still have the ICE running a variable RPM range, because they're part of the primary drive circuit.
It seems the market WANTS the mostly gas/electric boost, but that's not the best technology.

3) Diesle is good, but not as good as deisle hybrids.

4) Hydrogen as a near term solution is a joke. (and a very, very bad one!)And this is from someone who studied physics for too long to admit in public! For the non technical, think of the cost in $ and energy to re-create the entire gasoline delivery infrastructure. That would screw any gains for decades to centuries. Also, most H2 would come from breaking existing organic molecules (because they're cheap, we can't do enough by electo-separation, and no one will go for super-heated steam separation from a new generation of nuclear reactors to do it fast, in volume and cheap), creating CO2, so the green house impact isn't completely mitigated. Yeah, hydrogen is the future, but the question is for our kids, or thier kids, or thier kids, but not for us in a meaningful way (other than to screw with allocation decisions in Washington!).

5) I'm a fully left leaning greanie, and I think the best we have to do is reformulated hydrocarbon fuels (gas and diesle) hybrid technology. This is based on the cost to develope (it's pretty much here, just needs optimization, and low sulfur fuels), fuel density, fuel availability, and oddly enough, environmental imact.

6) Dangerous for safety workers? Yes, at the beginning. But High Energy Ignitions (spark plug volages in the several tens of thousands of volts) were new when I was in auto shop (slightly after the invention of the wheel ). You would not believe the number of stories of not firefighters, but service techs, who would pull running plugs on the GM modules and have serious problems as a consiquence (some even fatal). The same is true with fuel delivery in fuel injected cars with the electic fuel pump (with it's inertial shut off switch as well, that shuts the system in the event of a severe enough collision). So I'd admit the article is accurate, but somewhat nieve, a little interesting, and definantly incomplete.

But for the Mini, it sure would be a fun science project for a college mech. eng. class! Practical? Nope. Expensive? Yep. Possible? All depends on budget!

Matt

 

As long as they can't even develop a usable FI system I'd give them exactly zero chance of pulling something like that off

The new Mercedes Diesel, the VW TDI and new Honda Accod hybrid are all interesting (IMHO) because you get better performance than their gasoline equivalents AND better fuel economy.

Jeff

 

Something with at least 450hp behind the seats driving rear or all wheels

Something with a lot more thought than the "Showgun" Festiva

 

Hybrids are a stop gap technology, period. Also why is it that hybrid cars like the Civic and Prius get way lower city fuel mileage than the EPA rating suggests?? I am talking about a difference of over 15MPG on average?


Sorry but I am not sold into this technology, at least not yet. I think Diesels are a much better alternative by comparison.

 

Seems you know something that the rest of us don't. How can you make this conculsion when there hasn't been any sort of viable vision for the hydrogen econlomy? You can read the white house's own roadmaps, and it's full of holes so big you could drive a big belching semi or two through it!

Hell, so did my explorer! But the magnatude of the difference has a lot to do with driving styles. My folks have had both electrics (the EV-1) and Hybrids (the Prius) so I'm not just blowing smoke here.


You don't have to be sold, this isn't a "there's only one answer" thing as cars are used for many things (anyone building a hybrid for tractor pulls?).


For an iteresting real world comparison, you can look at

http://automobilemag.com/reviews/040...aro/index.html

Matt

 

"The People's Republik of Kalifornia" rolling towards Hydrogen:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0..._story_related

 

Good, now all they have to do is repeal the laws of physics (as Matt suggested). The "hydrogen economy" advocates (like Jeremy Rifkin and Amory Lovins) are selling a lot of snake oil, IMO. Sure, long-term, it makes some sense but internal combustion engines are wonderfully well-developed devices and it's going to take some doing to come up with something that works as well and is economically viable. There are lots of problems to be overcome, which you'll never hear of from the hydrogen economy zealots. You also won't see much in the way of hard data and meaningful comparisons. I like Joe Romm's quote from the article: "It's discouraging for me as a clean-energy advocate that people are putting claims out that aren't based on reality,"

Some interesting articles with a more realistic perspective:
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E11.pdf
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E05.pdf
http://www.therant.info/archive/001249.html
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?sect...le&storyid=730
(Dominic Crea, an old physics classmate of mine and friend, wrote the last two articles and is working on a book on the subject.)

Mark

 

For demonstration or other local concerns (like inner cities, where idleing busses and the like can be an issue) there is one deployment technology for hydrogen that does work, but the economics still suck.

If you have a local station for a fleet, you can deploy because you can have a single (if expensive and complicated) filling station. Think buss depot or garbage dump (every dump truck stops there!).

But these don't make money, they either spend grant money, are part of a larger corporate marketing effort (Look, we're GM and we make the drive by wire fuel-cell demo platform! We're so green!), or are spending heavy gov subsidies to seed the market.

I agree with the quote above. They hype is causing a real expection problem.

Oh yeah, this is a Mini Hybrid thread, so let me start over.....

There's one place where hybrid minis would make sense.....

Matt

I was cruising around the web and found this link:

http://www.lbst.de/gm-wtw/WHEC15_GM-..._28JUN2004.pdf

It shows a well-to-wheel comparison of the energy required per KM, and the green house gas effect of various powertrains and energy paths. Interesting is that a conclusion is that running electrics off the power grid has no net effect on GHG emissions! Anyway, it's short, and pretty interesting.

 

I guess I have two comments here...

First, while a hybrid MINI could be possible I suppose, the added weight (and possibly dimensions) would certainly not make it MINI-esque...

Second, the benefits of a hybrid really depend much upon the type of driving one does. My mom has had per '04 Prius for several months now. Her gas mileage is much better than her previous ride, but then that was an early '90s Ford Ranger. For those who do a fair amount of city driving (less than 30 or so mph), and my mom does, this is where gains are had. She has not seen the advertised high mpg ratings though...

I recently needed to get my wife a car, and it took only a few minutes to figure-out that a hybrid was not a prudent choice, for her/us. Given the roads that we traverse, we are over 40 mph the vast majority of time. With my CarChip E/X that logs all types of cool data, my 35 mile commute out of the canyon (and back) shows that just over 90% of that duration is over 35 or 40 mph (I have to go back and check my logs to make sure). I have it set to record speed every 5 seconds...

FWIW, we have about a 15 mile drive out of the canyon, with only one stop sign. From there, over the course of 3 more miles (somewhat rural), two stop lights, and then a freeway (101). A hybrid just wouldn't prove itself out over such driving, especially when factoring-in the premium price paid for such transportation...

I ended-up getting her a car that gets 29/35 mpg, and it cost several thousand less. For my mom, the hybrid is a good solution, for us, clearly not. That all being said, I do think it's a step in the right direction, and I do believe that we can have serious performance hybrid vechicles - on and off-road. As someone said earlier, the torque is there...

 

I think part of the problem when you talk hybrid or fuel cell or electric vs gasoline, is that you are alwasy goign to have yoru mopar/street racer/ pick-up truck detractors... but to be honest I think I coudl care less abotu what type of engine drives there cars... persoanlly I don't see anythign rogn with ahv a gas guzzler sports car or heavy duty truck.. but for you commuter car, grocery getter, youth, mini van, light pickup/suv, towncar, large luxuray car 9which strive for a quiet ride anyway, city buses, fleet vehciles... I think the vast majority shoudl be an alternative fuel, if we coudl get the majority of those cookie cutter ho hum everyday cars to be hybrid and leave the gas for the select few cars that RIGHT NOW need gas to define themselves I think we'd be better off as a whole, adn I don't think many eopel would car or argue that those cars would detract or be lessened by alternative fuels

 

I heard an explanation (from NPR, I think) on why hybrid vehicles advertise 50-55 MPG but only get 35-40 in the real world. It has to do with the way the EPA calculates mileage. They calculate it from inputs (gas/air) and outputs (CO2, water) from the running engine under a static load in a laboratory. Given the tiny combustion engine that runs the hybrids like the Prius, they get a HUGE benefit from this calculation. In the real world though, the advantage is not as large as the high MPG figures would let you believe.

The part that interested me most was that Toyota, Honda, etc. were forced by the EPA to report the higher numbers. Federal laws make it such that it would be illegal for them to report (advertise) figures (even if they are lower) that would be calculated by any other means than the standard EPA method. Go figure...

 

I don't think this is seeing the full potential of Hybrid technology. Yeah the Prius, Insight, etc are designed to be aerodynamic vehicles that maximize fuel efficiency, but we can also look at these cars as sort of a real world test-bed for this technology.

I think ultimately the direction things will head is that you will see hybrid powertrains in more and more "conventional" vehicles, not swoopy econoboxes. I can say this with certainty because that is indeed what is happening. Witness the Accord hybrid, upcoming Lexus RX 400H SUV, upcoming Toyota Hylander Hybrid SUV, upcoming Lexus GS sedan hybrid, upcoming Nissan Altima Hybrid, so on and so forth. These are just the vehicles I know of coming in the near future.

And all of these vehicles (I'm not sure about the Altima) DO NOT have smaller engines than their non-hybrid counterparts. Instead, they use the technology to boost the performance of the vehicles while not losing any but perhaps gaining some fuel milage.

This has to be looked at in the right perspective. There was mention in this thread that driving a hybrid takes a different style of driving because you need to accelerate slow, be monitoring the system, and on and on. To that I'd like to add that if you do that in a non-hybrid (accelerate slow, etc) you're going to increase your fuel milage.

It works the same in any car, period. If you floor it, you use fuel. In a hybrid, if you floor it, you use fuel. No car gets what EPA figures say, hybrids just deviate more because they are a tough thing to put real numbers on.

Mark my words that manufacturers will start to market the hybrid systems more and more as a powertrain option that gives better performance on the same or maybe less fuel. Just like you could get a V6, or opt for the V8, except in that case you use more fuel. In the case of V6 vs. V6 hybrid you gain performance, possibly save fuel. Or a Mini without supercharger and one with. It's simply an option of powertrain.

Yeah there will be a Prius for a while, and some true "fuel conscius" egg hybrids, but manufacturers CANNOT sell people on a hybrid powertrain in a conventional car as an "economical" option because of the premium they charge for the hybrid option. It would take longer than most people keep their cars to pay for that extra cost by saving money on fuel. However, they can sell people on a better performing powertrain that's at least as efficient.