That may be easier said than done. That was basically my plan as well, but my dealer would not do more than the tensioner... Maybe your dealer will be a bit more 'customer-oriented'...?

Yes, I've noticed that. Well, one thing is certain: the oil hasn't yet drained from somewhere whenever the 'zing' doesn't happen... But I tend to agree with your assessment of the source (timing chain); the noise just doesn't sound like a pump 'priming' sound to me... Unfortunately, I'm not the one that needs convincing; it's BMW/MINI...

 

Tim, the idea is to document with the dealer the wear pattern over time. When the slack exceeds 68 mm, the chain and guides should be replaced.

DOC

 

Well I bought a 2009 Cooper S back in April with 24,000 miles on it. I started to noticed the rattle on cold starts a few weeks later. It wasn't as bad as some people reported , it would normally only last about 3 - 5 seconds then go away.

I brought it in to the dealer for the recall last Friday and told them to look into the cold start rattle also. I thought they were going to be a pain about it because they claimed they were not aware of any cold start issues. Since they had to wait for the engine to get cold they sent me off with a loaner and said I would hear back from them on Monday. They called this morning and said it was ready for pick up. When I picked it up the paper work said they replaced the timing chain, tensioner, guide rails, sprocket, and a few other parts. Chain was 70mm. I was very happy they replaced all this and it sounds like a brand new car again!

If you want more details off my paper work let me know.

 

P/N of tensioner?

Thanks,

DOC

 

Ok, so it sounds like that there are 3 major issues that should be dealt with on higher mileage MINIs if one is going to get into it anyway.
1. Timing chain and tensioner, probably guides and hope gears are good.
2. Vacum pump. Nothing says a new one will not prematurely fail, but with age one could be pushing their luck, and
3.Aux Water pump. Again, why wait for a failure.

What is the best shop manual for engine work? I wonder when one of the Vendors will begin "kitting" common issue parts?

 

11-31-7-568-241 - Guide Rails - 113056
11-31-7-534-833 - Tensioner - 113055
11-31-7-534-771 - Bearing Bolt - 119500
11-31-7-534-768 - Bearing Bolt - 119500
11-31-7-55-461 - Gasket Ring - 119500
11-31-4-609-483 - Tensioner - 113050
11-21-7-588-996 - Sprocket - 113035
11-31-7-546-697 - Slide Rail - 113057
11-36-7-545-863 - Torx Bolt -11950
11-31-7-516-088 - Chain - 113030
A few more bolts and gaskets

 

i have a question for those motorers that have had timing chain issues, what is your oil/filter change interval (miles)?

i ask because a friend of mine has an independant repair shop and when i stopped by to show off my new cms all4 he told me his experience with mini timing chains

he currently cares for over 60 out of warranty minis and claims to have done about 25 timing chain/tensioner repairs

in ALL cases, he says the oil/filter changes were done on the mini schedule vs his recomendation of no more than 5k miles

in ALL cases, he claims to have found sludge in the bottom of the oil pan, in the internal passages of the engine feeding the chain/tensioner and in the oil filter

he claims that minis he has done oil/filter changes since new, ie at ~5k intervals, between the free/included mini oil/filter changes have had NO timing chain issues

he now will not service your mini UNLESS you agree to 5K or less oil/filter changes

i am not going to name the repair shop, at the owners request, because he does not want to get involved in a battle with bmw/mini

so, sound off, what has been your oil/filter change interval?

scott

 

I know no matter what the dealership and manufacturer says I change my oil synthetic or not at 3,000 miles no matter what, when oil breaks down it breaks down I have seen tests that show no breakdown and tests that do under 3 months of use with synthetic and conventional oils, and I would never let it go to chance, I have had too much money invested into my engines to let oil be the reason I am rebuilding. Turbo cars tend to be a bit harder on oil as well so I think your friend is on to something there.

 

My OCI has ranged between 12,000 and 20,000 miles depending on the oil I was using.

 

I'm personally not the least bit surprised by your friend's observations; I've come to the conclusion, based purely on the empirical evidence presented on this forum, that at least two of the major problems with the turbocharged Prince engine are (either directly or indirectly) attributable to the excessively-long oil change interval recommended by MINI/BMW -- including timing chain problems.

MINI/BMW went 'all-in' with their marketing folks (as opposed to their engineers) in foisting a 15,000-mile oil change interval on these cars -- simply to save money on their free maintenance program. Now, despite the mechanical issues that have ensued, they can't easily back away from that recommendation without inviting a lot of legal action from angry consumers. I don't care what anybody says: oil that has 15,000 miles of accumulated grime (the oil filter can only do so much) is going to cause mechanical problems -- especially in these small-displacement, high-revving, high-output engines. Changing the oil when the filter reaches it's 'capacity' to cleanse the oil is the longest anyone should go. And 5,000 miles is probably about the right time.

To answer your question: I purchased my JCW Clubman used, after about 1 year/12k miles had been put on it; so I don't have detailed information on the maintenance history up to that point. It's conceivable mine didn't get it's first oil change until I purchased it and had MINI do one under their maintenance plan. And that may have contributed to the minor timing chain rattle that mine developed; I honestly can't say beyond the shadow of a doubt...

However, since I purchased mine, it's turned into something of a 'garage queen' due to my job situation; so I haven't put too many miles on it. But I've had the oil changed annually (primarily under the MINI free maintenance plan, until it expired on my vehicle). Once I start driving it regularly, my plan is to adhere to a 5,000 mile interval for oil changes.

 

I don't know if I have said anything about it in this thread yet, but:

I recently had some work done on my Justa by the local dealer. The SA there told me that only the S and JCW models had timing chain issues, that the Justa motor (at least the iteration in my car) did not.

When the dealership did the 1-year service (at ~9600 miles), they reset the CBS timer. The new interval reads 10,000 miles instead of 17,000+ as it did when I first picked the car up. So the update we heard earlier (specifically about pre-2010 cars) also applies to 2012 Justa models--and presumably to the S and JCW ones as well.

Just an extra bit of data for you.

 

my 03/2012 build cms all4 OBC oil change interval started at 9000 miles, so they have backed down from the 15000 miles, at least on the newest models

to me, even 9000 is to long, my OBC is now saying oil/filter is due at 8200 and that will be oil/filter change number 3

scott

 

Interesting. I notice there's been very little publicly mentioned about this by MINI/BMW, however. No rationale offered either.

Rhetorically speaking: with essentially the same engine, if a 15,000-mile oil change interval was 'good enough' for the previous model years, why not the later ones...? And if 9,000 miles is now the recommended interval, what was different (i.e., 'better' or more 'robust') about the previous model-year engines that allowed them to go another 6,000 miles without an oil change...? If the answer to the latter question is "nothing," then why haven't previous owners been notified by MINI/BMW about this change in an important maintenance interval...? These are questions that I'll bet MINI/BMW doesn't want to be asked...

 

"ignore the man behind the curtain"

scott

 

My own theory is the change in intervals was driven by the marketing folks.

Some reports indicate the shorter OCI gets applied to older MINIs if the go in for some service that results in a software update being applied.

 

Read my posts in this thread carefully. You can see from the wear rate on my Justa, which has always received 5K oil changes, that the timing chain slack will be at the limit (68mm) in no more than 70K miles. This is WAY too short an interval.


This problem is no different than on the N14, it just may occur a little later in the life cycle of an N12.


DOC

 

Exactly, my friend...!

I tend to agree with you on that point, "DOC:" there's likely chain slack at engine start that contributes to timing chain problems. But I don't think that issue is necessarily related to the excessively-long oil change interval; it's just a poor design of the tensioner and/or it's oil supply.

 

Some perspective perhaps... many vehicles maintenance program mandate a timing "belt" change at some mileage interval. My Tacoma Xtra cab V-6 (DOHC) was 75K miles. If it failed all kinds of nasty stuff could happen, so it is prudent to do that service. You would usally replace the water pump while you were there since it is under the same cover out of general principle. That cost, turn key at the dealer as I recall was around $600.00, not $1600.00. Just .02 worth.

 

i asked at the dealer, mini has no suggested/mandatory timing chain/tensioner change, maybe they should, then we could factor that into costy of ownership

scott

 

Mike, you are correct, to a point. My 92 GP 4 cam 3400 (chevy sourced engine) has a chain and a belt (yea, dont ask) and the belt is changed at 90 to 105K because if it breaks, the valves and the pistons get real cozy and many disasterous and expensive things happen right now !!!! afterwards. However, that is a belt. My 83 Camaro w/ 308K miles had its original everything, the oil pump was changed when the pan got whacked (lowering springs) but other than that the engine was factory sealed. A proper chain will last a long long time, these are just pure French-made junk. The design is seriously defective, BMW knows it and they're covering because it would take years of corp profits to offset the recall costs of every S ever built, so they will continue to stick it up our *** and show how much they value repeat business and a good customer reputation. My brother had a GM Quad 4 with near 200K on it before the timing chain finally ate through a tensioner guide and started doing the Caterpillar sound. And yes, I do recall my belt change being in the $560 neighborhood 10 yrs or more back when it was done. The car is just my weekend toy now, only sees 800 to 1K miles per year.

 

I cannot disagree one little bit. Cheaply made chain, long chain runs, inadequate chain support, poor tensioning are all things that I, being a non-engineer would guess at least part of the problem with the design. I used to rebuild old British straight sixes with short run single row timing chains. I was always amazed at how much stretch could be observed in the chain with the tensioner removed. But those tensioners rarely grenaded, only grooved and then the car would just run like $h_t.

 

FYI - - -

My 2008 Justa has had an engine rattle for over a year. It happens when the warmed-up engine is revved in neutral between 2500 - 3000 rpm. Very loud & noticeable. Dealer has replaced the exhaust Vanos solenoid (twice), the exhaust Vanos unit, the timing chain/guides/tensioner, all to absolutely no effect. They have pronounced the noise "Fixed!" three or four times, each time I have revved the engine for them at the dealership and have been able to reproduce the sound for them - exactly as before their fix.

The last time - - just before my warranty ran out - - the "master tech" listened and pronounced the noise to be "normal". He said it was a normal gear rattle coming from the transmission when in neutral, no repair needed. This despite the fact that the noise is clearly emanating from the top of the engine right where the timing chain & cam gears are located. The transmission is on the opposite side towards the bottom of the car, nowhere near the clattering sound.

Total B.S.! I asked why they had attempted to repair it at least five times if it was normal. They had no answer for that.

The car runs fine otherwise. The idle does "hunt" a bit on cold start, but this seems a common thing with MINIs and is not severe at all. The noise is a worry, though - it makes me wonder about long-term durability. It is now out of warranty.

So, Justas can have timing chain issues too!

__________________________________________________ ___

 

I'm confused. You say Justas have timing chain problems, but you also say that they replaced yours and it didn't help? Just trying to clarify.

 

33EJB,

I strongly suggest you immediately have your timing chain slack measured as per the procedure referenced in my posts in this thread.

It does not take much more than 10 minutes to remove the tensioner, install the dummy, measure and replace the tensioner. If you have over 65 mm, I would suggest installing the "long" (again, check my posts). (At over 68 mm, you need to replace everything.)

I believe the "problem" is caused by the tensioner not being at full "tension" prior to startup. You can hear the chain dragging and wearing until the oil pressure comes up. I plan to install an Accusump to address this.

DOC

 

Just to summarize my long post - - my 2008 Justa developed a rattle over a year ago. The dealer threw all kinds of parts at it, including replacing the timing chain and related guides, tensioner, etc. over at least five visits. The rattle still exists to this day.

Finally, after being unable to fix the problem, they declared it a "normal" condition and gave up - - coincidentally (?) just as my warranty expired.

More to follow on this topic for me, I'm sure.