I'm really trying to love my new (to me) 2010 Justa Cooper - but the noise it makes when cold started and for the 1st 10 mins of driving is hideous

I know this is not the death rattle as my car is the non turbo cooper model.

Mileage : 4700
Outside temps : 0-8.5C

The initial lifter clatter goes after about 5-10 seconds as expected with hydraulic tappets, but then almost immediately, when reving between 1500 and 2500rpm there is a really loud clattering that sounds like the lifters have no oil in them - it rises and falls with the engine speed - and eventually tails off after about 10 minutes or so of driving.

I have checked the oil and it is about halfway between the marks on the dipstick.

I have only had the car 2 weeks and it has been back to the dealer already to have them listen from cold and they say it is 'normal' but I'm not sure if they just started it and let it idle or if they were actually able to recreate it.

The loan 2011 Justa they gave me also made a fair bit of clatter noise but was nowhere near as loud as my car.

Are these prince engines just rough and unrefined? I have had quite a few cars in my time and none have ever made this amount of tappet/lifter noise - to me it sounds wrong.

Thanks in advance and Merry Xmas :-)


Bloater

 

I hate saying something is "normal" because what IS normal

Anyhow...

It has been getting in the 20s around here and I've noticed in the morning that the car makes the initial noise you described until the RPMs drop. Once I start accelerating slowly down the road the car sounds fairly loud...like a diesel engine. I want to say that it has become louder with the miles but it could be the cold weather causing it.

This isn't anything new to me because my previous car was a Mitsubishi Lancer and it was loud on cold start as well. The manual for the car even said that cold starts can be louder than normal and to not be concerned. This is off topic but I loved that manual ...it said to pass a vehicle you should "push the accelerator to floor".

Could you make a recording of the sound for us to listen to?

 

My 2008 makes its share of noises cold as well. I have come to accept them and I know they are not detrimental, so I look past them. I wouldn't say they are alarming once you I viewed the tsbs on cold start up as well as the experiences of others on this site.

 

I have a 2010 Justa that I have had from new and now has 19000 miles on it. I noticed a reduction in cold start clatter when I switched to Mobil 1 00-40, but it is very slight and goes away in 15 seconds after a dead cold start.

However, you are mistaken about Justas not being prone to "death rattle". It is the same system using an oil pressure fed tensioner as on the "S". I would drop the car off at the dealer and then be there the next day when they start it up from cold with the hood open. Record the sound with your cell phone and email them the wave file. Keep complaining and documenting if they don't fix it. If it is as bad as you suggest, it is only a matter of time before you have a failure.

Always check oil at least weekly and make sure it is always at the top mark. There are probably several reasons why Justas seem to have less trouble with this.

Relatively few Justa owners tend to participate in forums relative to turbo owners, so there are fewer incidents to hear about.
Valve spring pressure may be less so there may be less constant strain on timing chain/tensioner.
Drastically lower power output puts less strain in terms of accelerative loads on same.
Justas probably tend to lose less oil than turbos so when owners rarely check oil, Justas may suffer less low oil operation.
Justa drivers drive less aggressively. Combined with low oil levels, they are less likely to suffer oil starvation under hard cornering and braking. (Too slow to do much under acceleration.)

But, bottom line is not to believe you are "immune" to tensioner failure because you have a 2010 Justa. (Shouldn't need decarbonizing, though, since we don't have direct injection.)

DOC

 

"Justa drivers drive less aggressively. Combined with low oil levels, they are less likely to suffer oil starvation under hard cornering and braking. (Too slow to do much under acceleration.)"

Unbelievable. Merry Christmas.

 

Thanks for the responses guys

Will make a recording tomorrow and will also get some more oil in it and report back

 

From his sig, he drives a Justa too. I drive my Cooper to it's limits, probably on the throttle more and cornering harder than the average grocery-gettin' MCS in my area, but it may be true that is atypical. Or he's just being tongue in cheek, who knows. In either case I wouldn't be offended.

 

I wasn't offended. I just found the level of presumptiveness remarkable.

 

Have been visiting family this last few days and the car has been out in the cold day and night in -15C (5F) temperatures. It has been making quite the racket when cold and slightly less so when at operating temps.

Before the road trip I was at 1/2 oil point on the dip stick but checking today it is full. My parking spot at home is angled so must have thrown off my reading. The Prince engine seriously sounds like a diesel on a good day so I think I am just being paranoid.

Anyways I am tempted to record the noise and post on NAM later to see what people think. Not really interested right now standing outside in -15C weather. Otherwise the car runs great and drove for the first time in about 2in of snow.

 

+1 If I went into a thread making assumptions like that I would get torn apart by other posters.

 

Our '12 R56 Justa does the same thing and it is pretty loud. Our '11 R60 Justa does it too, but not as loud bc it is in the garage and doesn't get as cold overnight. I have driven a bunch of 2nd gen's and they all seem to do it and are all pretty loud in my opinion. It really did freak me out at first when we got the R60 b.c I thought something was wrong.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iys3otpslYw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrjR3M9XPw


Not sure these capture the worst of the noise because it was 13.5C today and not really as bad today

 

Jeesh! I got tired of typing "relatively". It should be obvious from my sig that I have an "unusual" Justa that is set up for aggressive street driving. Justa owners like myself and you who participate in this forum are undoubtedly atypical relative to most Justa owners and surely drive more aggressively than the vast majority.

You completely missed the point of my post which was to dissuade the OP from thinking that the Justa is fundamentally different from an "S" and therefore not subject to tensioner failure.

There are many reasons why we seem to rarely "hear" about tensioner failures from Justa owners and I was simply trying to point some of them out.

Or, maybe you are just jealous of my IE camber plates?

DOC

 

No matter what car people have if they experience an unexpected repair with their car they usually vent some where. Where are you seeing even a hint of tensioner problems with the naturally aspirated Cooper?

 

My dealer has run into tensioner issues on R56 Justas. However, my point was to NOT IGNORE signs of potential tensioner failure because of believing Justa owners have nothing to worry about. We do. It may just be less common or take more miles before developing.

It's the same design as an MCS. Also, the vacuum motor on the end of the cam can seize just like an MCS if the oil level gets low.

DOC

 

I have a 2010 'Not an 'S' and the first month of ownership that Feruary here in the great Northeast one cold morning the engine clattered as if the tappets were stuck - not the normal cold clatter that disappeared as the car warmed up. I shut it down and then it was normal upon restart and nothing wrong by the time I got to the dealer (of course). All i could do is ask the SA to note it in case it recurred.

 

Keep an eye on it..

 

My 08 'justa in the second winter of owning it, made HORRIFIC cold-start grinding noises (for about a minute) just a couple of times. Since then it has been what I would consider normal (still noisy on a cold start, but NOTHING like the previous sound of what had to be the timing chain dragging against the block).

 

Car has now been into MINI dealer again today, well I took it in last night, left it there and then went back in this morning to demonstrate the clattering noise.

It's not the initial HLA/Lifter noise that appears for 5-10 secs after cold start - normal and to be expected on any car with hydraulic lifters.

It's not the sharp tick tick tick that occurs at idle from the rear/intake area of the engine - this is normal as I have now heard it on 4 different cars and is apparently a valve in the injection.

The clattering in my car occurs approx 1 minute after driving off from an initial cold start, it then continues as the revs increase/decrease for about 10 minutes or until engine is warmed up.

It is most apparent at approx 2000-3000rpm and sounds like a metallic clattering or some really badly adjusted tappets.

Anyway, the top mechanic (a really nice and helpful guy)came out in the car with me and sure enough he was able to hear the noise, however initially he was trying to say it was normal MINI Prince engine noises.

So I asked if we could go out in another 2010 Justa Cooper to compare - they had one on the forecourt with 5.5k miles - virtually the same as mine which is showing 5k.

The engine in this car was much quieter, certainly not making the same noises - although I did hear the noise on 2 occasions and for approx 5-10 seconds each during the same test route - not for the continuous 10mins mine does.

So although not sure what it was, and mumbling something about cold start/warm up cycle, it is now booked in again next week when I can take away a loan 2010 Justa.

The intention is for the mechanic to do some research/tinkering and I can compare engine noises in the same situations that I drive my car, initially over a 2 day period.

Anyone got any ideas?

There is definitely something wrong with my car - I'm sure of it

 

Tumbleweed !

Nobody has any ideas what this could be?
It is getting to the point where I don't even want to drive the car because everytime I start it it sounds hideous.

Hope I'm not going to have to trade it for something else and lose money as I really wanted to love my MINI.

 

Bloater -

I can't say that this is the same problem I experienced with a 96 Subaru Outback AWD motor, but the description is the same. It would sound like piston slap for 5-10 mintues until the engine warmed up; a load knocking sound.

Subaru tried to tell me it was "normal". It got worse, so I continued taking it in. They finally acknowledged that they didn't know what it was, so they agreed to repalce the engine and have my engine sent to corporate to be researched. They found out it was a faulty design in the oiling of the piston pins for that engine. By the time they discovered that, the new engine they put in my Outback was making the same noise...

Eventually they developed a fix in the design (don't know how or what they changed?) and installed a new "corrected" engine in the car. By that time I had all I could take and sold that POS ASAP with a brand new motor! No recall was ever issued for all the faulty engines out there either.

My reason for posting this is, "IF" the noise is "not normal" mechanics will eventually determine that. If it is a lack of oiling issue somewhere, it will get worse.

FWIW: My first thought is to ask the dealer to install some Mobil 1 Synthetic Extreme (EDIT: S/B EXTENDED PERFORMANCE) 5-30W ($30+ at Wally World) to see if the cold start issues are reduced or eliminated. This 15,000 mile oil states it will assist with extreme temps and cold starting and clearly meets or exceeds Mini oil recommendation standards. Just a thought.

Work with Mini the best you can. If a real problem does exist and you are the first one to have it (like I was with the Subaru), most companies are very interested in knowing what it is. Good luck!

PS: Does your 2010 really only have 4700 miles or is it 47000?

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply blackice

Yes it only has 4700 miles on it so wouldn't have expected any issues for a few years/miles yet but alas.

I traded a perfectly good ford that I had owned 6 yrs with no issues for this mini that sounds like a bag of spanners - i am so upset

 

I think this thread is making me hypersensitive to noises now....

Bloater...that sound you describe sounds like my car. The noise is definitely different from the normal tapping and sounds a bit harsh until the car warms up. However Ive noticed even when the car is warm and Im in first gear revving around 2-3k RPMs it sounds ....rougher than I remember. Almost seems like the car has gotten louder sinceI bought it. It's hard to say whether it's like "normal" but I dont have time to keep going to the dealer unless something is obviously wrong.

 

I'm officially hi-jacking this thread (with all due respect to the OP) to try and put an end to the negativity associated with our naturally aspirated MINI Coopers. Namely the terminology...

Non-S and Justa? Really?? Who thought of this?? I'm going to my sig right now. MC was the most accurate way of letting the world know that I don't have a turbo without it sounding so doggone inept...

Straight Cooper! Yes, I love my Straight Cooper!

 

YAY!! Now that's a term I can learn to love. Thank you, Albiecrazy. Winnie the MINI thanks you too.

Joanie and Winnie the MINI