Im gonna contact my attorney and have the cold start issue documented as an issue that many people are having. Im also going to have the dealership document it as an issue. If everyone having the issue gets an affidivit and documentation from the dealer which u can get if u ask for it. Seeing how many people are having the issue the 500 dollars it would probably cost to start researching the issue with the attorney if we split it wont cost much. I just was part of a settlement against toshiba and even though it took over 3 years i was offered the cost of repair if it needed to be done which it was.
Toshiba origanaly tried to blame the problem on everything. It had to do with the bulb not lasting as long as what was claimed by toshiba. We have a similiar problem. My buddy whos an aerospace engineer and works for the military desighning engines says that if under normal operating conditions it sounds ok and any external issues effecting a change in the sound is a inherint problem that needs to be fixed. Chances are it could potentialy be a problem. We need to stick together and bother the hell out of mini. I just noticed for the first time lasst week when it got cold out i bought a car not a box truck.

 

I hear crickets chirping.

 

You can't make a strong legal case from claiming that "Chances are it could potentialy be a problem". I don't think a lawsuit can go anywhere until people start to see actual engine damage caused by the problem.

 

i agree but thats how it was with toshiba to.

 

While you're at it, can you start a suit on behalf of all of us who bought the crappy hi-fi system? A $500 refund or free replacement system would make me happy. Thanks.

 

Damages, damages, damages is what it is all about in the courts and when you can not prove damages you are wasting your time.

As for the noise there is precedent in the European markets and a perfectly valid engineering explanation.

Mini owners should accept that they bought a cheap made in England econobox and not expect a mini-BMW. The expense is to be found in the weak US currency and not in the car's components.

 

A valid explanation doesn't mean there's no problem. I think Mini will do their best to solve the issue (to protect their brand value). Of course, if they decide the engine was a designed piece of junk, the green eye shades at the company will do their best to avoid the issue until they come up with a new engine.

 

Just because the engine makes that noise doesn't mean it's a piece of junk. Has anyone had engine failure in their Mini that can traced to the noise? No. The noise is just a characteristic of this engine. Don't like it, get rid of it....... Don't mind it, keep motoring!

 

No, it's different from the Toshiba case. Lawsuits are all about determining "damages" (a legal term -- see here). With Toshiba there was definitive proof of premature product failure, which was the basis for damages.

You'll have to conclusively prove that the cold start has already harmed the engine. You expressed concern that "Chances are it could potentialy be a problem." Your concern is valid, but in the court you can't claim damages on something that might hypothetically happen in the future. I encourage efforts to make BMW resolve the issue, but a lawsuit is a tough way to go.

 

Has anyone had engine failure? That's an interesting question. I understand that Mini has replaced some engines - perhaps to study the issue. The problem with this type of issue is that no one has any information. It sounds like a problem with the engine but is it really? Will engine failure occur soon or 2 years after your warranty expires? We don't know. Mini needs to take proactive steps to deal with the "cold start issue". If it's only a perception problem then Mini should come out and say that "the sound may be disconcerting but it does not cause damage to the engine". Then back it up with a significant extension of the warranty on the engine. Buyer/owner concerns would be eliminated.

 

Exactly. Apparently, BMW will be using the JCW variant in the 1 Series, and if there was a known problem that was causing serious damage I couldn't see them making future plans involving the same engine design.


Agreed, though perhaps serious issues will not arise until the cars have a high enough mileage. Still, I'm currently going with BMW/MINI's explanation until a better theory comes along.

 

Well, MINI have used this explanation, but they haven't extended the warranty.

 

There is no engineering problem that impacts the car's driveability and longevity.

Mini is not trying to solve the issue since there is no issue that needs to be solved.

Nobody has decided that the Peugeot-BMW alliance has designed a "piece of junk" and Peugeot is using the same engine in their 207 GTI and 308 where it makes the same noises without complaints from the buyers. This engine has won the engine of the year award for the second straight year out of 71 European engines competing for this award. No piece of junk here.

Keep in mind that NVH gets worse as a car gets smaller and the Mini is as small as they come.

I'm not making excuses for Mini USA and I could write a very long list of items that need to be improved on the car but I was aware of those shortcomings before buying the car and I still bought it because in the sum of its qualities this car has no equal.

 

Verily

 

Perception becomes reality when it comes to consumer products. The perception is that if your engine starts to make bad sounds (out of the blue) then something is wrong with it. It may not be true but I'm waiting for Mini to come out and definitively make that statement. Right now you have some engineers saying that the noise shouldn't cause any damage as long as you don't rev the engine past 2000rpm. If you do rev it past 2000rpm then you will cause damage. Lots of comments/thoughts on the issue but we don't know the truth.

When a company doesn't deal with the concerns then unwarranted lawsuits get filed. I remember when a car maker was sued because its cars were accused of unintended acceleration when the driver was stepping on the brakes. There was no engineering flaw in the brakes. If fact, the drivers were accidentally stepping on the gas. But the auto company LOST the suit because they designed the footpedals in such a way that the gas pedal was closer to where the brake pedal is on most cars. In fact, the auto engineers knew that the pedals could cause a problem but they had already designed the footwell and it would cost too much to change the entire design. I believe the company was Audi but I'm not sure. The auto company fixed the design in a later model year.

 

Correct it was the Audi 5000 which aired on 60 Minutes titled "Out of Control" back in November 23,1986 and then repeated on September 13,1987.

Link: http://www.audifans.com/archives/1998/07/msg02177.html

 

Reality is that filing a lawsuit based on the perception of damages is certain to elicit hilarity with any bench and a quick no merit dismissal.

 

The ambulance chasers tried it with Toyota as well and it was dismissed by the federal safety regulators of the NHTSA in September 2008.

As earlier said you can't get damages because of perceptions ghosting in the vacuousness of your own mind.

 

If you read my posts you should notice that I'm not advocating any lawsuit. However, if you know anything about lawsuits you should know that it's not that difficult to find an expert to explain that there is long-term damage to the engine (in such and such a scenario). The lawyer will then make that scenario seem plausible.

Regardless, a brand manager ought to be concerned about the "cold start issue" because the perception of an issue damages the brand.

 

We are on a circular argument here since in order to get the experts testifying you first have to get a court willing to hear it. Yes we do have 300 lawyers per 100,000 in the US to only 7 in Japan but even so the courts have little patience with frivolities.

As for the brand manager they make decisions based on cost and I suspect that we'll have to live with the noise until the next engine generation.

 

Therein lies the heart of the issue, which is rooted in the economics. Until there is a widely shared public perception that something is indeed wrong and premature damage may be occurring, or the issue is evidenced in a much, much greater number of actual failures, MINI has little incentive to invest in a bona-fide fix.

Presently, the vast majority of interested parties likely fall into four camps: (1) they've never experienced or noticed the cold start issue; (2) they've heard it and dismissed it outright as insignificant; (3) they've experienced it, pointed it out to their SA, and were satisfied with the "it's normal" response; or (4) they've experienced it, researched it, and are confident enough that it's not doing premature damage to the engine. There are too few "others" for MINI to give any serious attention to the issue. I imagine they don't care too much about early third-party sales of used MINIs due to dissatisfaction in previous new car buyers.

I always go back to the 1st Gen ('02-'04) PS pump/fan/wiring harness design flaws and the fact that no legal action or recall ever happened despite fairly compelling evidence that the design could lead to some pretty serious consequences. The cold start issue--thus far--pales in comparison. Even if the Peugeot engines started prematurely failing on a regular basis, I think the best we could hope for from MINI is a response analogous to the PS pump issue and what Ian suggests (i.e., a replacement or minor redesign in a subsequent model year, initiated without fanfare or public rationale, and no recall of earlier models).

So until it's clearly evident to MINI that a critical mass of their target market will not consider buying a new MINI due to concern over the remaining uncertainties associated with long-term impacts of the cold start issue [ *raises hand to be counted* but I'm only one so BFD] don't expect much to happen. Given the fact that demand is currently outstripping supply and MINI sales are outperforming almost all other makes and models, the likelihood of action is even less.

 

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

Vehicles produced from 01.05.07 - A modified timing chain tensioner assembly will not be available untill approx December 08.The noise is not detrimental to the life or operation of the engine and is purely an acoustic issue. Please refer to PuMA Measure 10686850.

 

Winner indeed Chris.

Where did you find this and does it identify from-to VINs?

 

As for the "Issue" Yes mine does make a lot more noise when cold starting but on that note i had a Nissan Pathfinder that made three times more noise than my Mini when it was cold and Nissan told me the same thing Mini is telling us. "It is not detrimental to the engine, it is acoustic only". I believed them and changed my oil regularly and when i sold it 11 years later it had over 400,000 miles on it and it still made the same noise. I will take note that they were CORRECT.

There is no court in this world that will side with you if you DO NOT HAVE PROOF of damages. Until you car has been damaged by the noise (not jsut your ego) then there is nothing that Mini needs to do about it.

 

As I recall reading about this some dealers tried a chain tensioner for this noise. Am I wrong on this? (Walter, The Big Lebowski)