Cold start chatter
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
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From: Florence, Oregon
Just got my latest copy of Consumer Reports magazine. They no longer recommend the '07-09 MINI Cooper S, due to engine issues, I suspect ...
Last edited by oldMGguy; Nov 9, 2009 at 07:15 PM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
7th TIMES A CHARM!!!
I went in for a routine service (15,000 miles) and metioned the cold start chatter... somehow this time they MIRACULOUSLY acknowledged it and have replaced the tensioner...
Hey man, I don't care as long as it's fixed now... I'm pretty happy. The funny thing is how many times previously I had the SA deny there was ever such an issue... EVEN after presenting a copy of the 11 02 08 SIM with the Mini Logo on it...
I went in for a routine service (15,000 miles) and metioned the cold start chatter... somehow this time they MIRACULOUSLY acknowledged it and have replaced the tensioner...
Hey man, I don't care as long as it's fixed now... I'm pretty happy. The funny thing is how many times previously I had the SA deny there was ever such an issue... EVEN after presenting a copy of the 11 02 08 SIM with the Mini Logo on it...
Neutral
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Wonderful... Not that CR is gospel, but may be a looming warning.
Picked up my 09 MCS and it had 32miles, now at 1300miles...
Had her for just 2 months now, and a few days ago heard the rattle of death, but am unable to get her to the dealer right now....
So far the rev to 3k and kill it is working...
Picked up my 09 MCS and it had 32miles, now at 1300miles...
Had her for just 2 months now, and a few days ago heard the rattle of death, but am unable to get her to the dealer right now....
So far the rev to 3k and kill it is working...
4th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Lombard, IL
no more rattles!
Any volunteers?
My 09 MCS started doing it again. Only happens after driving car for a while, then letting it sit for under an hour then restarting. Dealer says it is normal but was quick to schedule a service apt to check it out anyway.
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11
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Just got mine done last week. Took a couple of days to fix along with a few other small items. My car used to do the rattle at least 3-4 times a week. Hasn't done it since the repair (about a week). Mechanic said it was pretty bad.
Another thing i just realized. Today i did a oil change (9700 miles) and put OEM Mini Oil in. This was also the first time i got the cold start issue reallly bad since my LAST oil change (2500 miles). "Who cares" you ask? I have been using Royal Purple for the past 5 months!
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 142
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From: Florence, Oregon
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,880
Likes: 3
From: Your Worst Nightmare :)
I think it may be more related to yr oil change back to OEM oil and the general noisiness of these DI engine when cold. Let us know what yr dealer says.
4th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Lombard, IL
I am pretty sure no one officially from MINI has ever said that anyone couldn't park nose down... that would just be silly...
5th Gear
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 942
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From: Nor-Cal
I have a MCS July '08 build. I have 4k miles on my car and have never heard the "death rattle" and noises you guys are all describing.
Here are my questions:
1) is this issue something that ALL MCS owners should have addressed? Or only those w/ the "death rattle"?
2) Is the replacement tensioner the same as the one originally installed? Is the issue (according to BMW) that some/many of the original tensioners were installed incorrectly. Is it possible that some or many of us had ours installed correctly and will never need them replaced?
3) What is the average mileage that most people seem to experience this issue? or is it all over the board?
thanks, i've tried to read through most of the posts ..yet still have these quesitons.
Here are my questions:
1) is this issue something that ALL MCS owners should have addressed? Or only those w/ the "death rattle"?
2) Is the replacement tensioner the same as the one originally installed? Is the issue (according to BMW) that some/many of the original tensioners were installed incorrectly. Is it possible that some or many of us had ours installed correctly and will never need them replaced?
3) What is the average mileage that most people seem to experience this issue? or is it all over the board?
thanks, i've tried to read through most of the posts ..yet still have these quesitons.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,880
Likes: 3
From: Your Worst Nightmare :)
Mine in blue 
I have a MCS July '08 build. I have 4k miles on my car and have never heard the "death rattle" and noises you guys are all describing.
Here are my questions:
1) is this issue something that ALL MCS owners should have addressed? Or only those w/ the "death rattle"?
Yes it affects only the turbocharged Prince engine found not only in MCS's and JCWs but in European Peugeots with the same mill
2) Is the replacement tensioner the same as the one originally installed? Is the issue (according to BMW) that some/many of the original tensioners were installed incorrectly. Is it possible that some or many of us had ours installed correctly and will never need them replaced?
Who knows? It seems pretty random
3) What is the average mileage that most people seem to experience this issue? or is it all over the board?
Mine is a Sept 08 build and I had it twice in the first 3K last winter, both times parked nose-down about 40 degrees. However, since I started revving the engine to 3K, then hitting the stop button at 3K (when I knew my car was going to be parked long enough to go dead-cold, 6+ hours) it has not recurred in nearly 9 months and 6K miles, inc parked nose-down at the airport for a week. If you get the knock, and you WILL know it, try this method.
thanks, i've tried to read through most of the posts ..yet still have these quesitons.
I just had a full top end job done on my 86 Toy PU's 22RE engine at 272K miles, new chain, tensioners, guides, valve job, head gasket, water and oil pumps, etc etc. I described the MCS cold start knock to my mechanic, and he thinks what another SAE engineer theorized, that it's the poorly-designed hydraulic valve lash adjusters arent getting enough oil at power-down from this engine's oil delivery system (that's not in the base engine), they drain and aereate, and upon cold engine start up they become pnuematic and hence the knocking noise until the engine warms up and the metals expand to within designed tolerances. According to him this knocking is common with HLA-equipped engines; his wife's Mitsu Eclipse did it pretty often--until he learned about revving the engine at shutdown from a relative with an old Cadillac whose V8 had HLAs--and the same problem. HLAs have extremely tight tolerances, and if they are poorly designed to where they cannot hold enough oil as they cool off, they will knock in the transition from cold to warm engine.
We also discussed the tensioner fix, and how it reappeared after many of these fixes (inc one guy whose car did it on the lot right after being fixed) and he doesnt think the tensioner is the primary cause of the problem, that the tensioner is just a band-aid fix that can be done pretty fast, compared to tearing down the top end and replacing the HLAs. He did, however, say that if the knocking gets more common and worse over time, because of the tight tolerances this increased mechanical stress can domino-affect other valve train components like the tensioner, guides, chain, and vacuum pump. Failure of that pump will result in your engine siezing up and going south for good.
Hope this helps, and good luck. Oh and if you're wondering about the safety of the shutdown method, dont worry, my SA said no harm can come to the engine for doing this, just dont exceed 3K. He's also teamed up with other SAs to point this method out to BMW/PSA, why it works for the most part, so they can try and solve this issue once and for all.
Here are my questions:
1) is this issue something that ALL MCS owners should have addressed? Or only those w/ the "death rattle"?
Yes it affects only the turbocharged Prince engine found not only in MCS's and JCWs but in European Peugeots with the same mill
2) Is the replacement tensioner the same as the one originally installed? Is the issue (according to BMW) that some/many of the original tensioners were installed incorrectly. Is it possible that some or many of us had ours installed correctly and will never need them replaced?
Who knows? It seems pretty random
3) What is the average mileage that most people seem to experience this issue? or is it all over the board?
Mine is a Sept 08 build and I had it twice in the first 3K last winter, both times parked nose-down about 40 degrees. However, since I started revving the engine to 3K, then hitting the stop button at 3K (when I knew my car was going to be parked long enough to go dead-cold, 6+ hours) it has not recurred in nearly 9 months and 6K miles, inc parked nose-down at the airport for a week. If you get the knock, and you WILL know it, try this method.
thanks, i've tried to read through most of the posts ..yet still have these quesitons.
I just had a full top end job done on my 86 Toy PU's 22RE engine at 272K miles, new chain, tensioners, guides, valve job, head gasket, water and oil pumps, etc etc. I described the MCS cold start knock to my mechanic, and he thinks what another SAE engineer theorized, that it's the poorly-designed hydraulic valve lash adjusters arent getting enough oil at power-down from this engine's oil delivery system (that's not in the base engine), they drain and aereate, and upon cold engine start up they become pnuematic and hence the knocking noise until the engine warms up and the metals expand to within designed tolerances. According to him this knocking is common with HLA-equipped engines; his wife's Mitsu Eclipse did it pretty often--until he learned about revving the engine at shutdown from a relative with an old Cadillac whose V8 had HLAs--and the same problem. HLAs have extremely tight tolerances, and if they are poorly designed to where they cannot hold enough oil as they cool off, they will knock in the transition from cold to warm engine.
We also discussed the tensioner fix, and how it reappeared after many of these fixes (inc one guy whose car did it on the lot right after being fixed) and he doesnt think the tensioner is the primary cause of the problem, that the tensioner is just a band-aid fix that can be done pretty fast, compared to tearing down the top end and replacing the HLAs. He did, however, say that if the knocking gets more common and worse over time, because of the tight tolerances this increased mechanical stress can domino-affect other valve train components like the tensioner, guides, chain, and vacuum pump. Failure of that pump will result in your engine siezing up and going south for good.
Hope this helps, and good luck. Oh and if you're wondering about the safety of the shutdown method, dont worry, my SA said no harm can come to the engine for doing this, just dont exceed 3K. He's also teamed up with other SAs to point this method out to BMW/PSA, why it works for the most part, so they can try and solve this issue once and for all.
Last edited by sequence; Nov 26, 2009 at 08:32 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,880
Likes: 3
From: Your Worst Nightmare :)
This was back in the day when BMW/MINI were in serious denial as to the legtimacy of the problem.
Last edited by sequence; Nov 26, 2009 at 08:22 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,578
Likes: 4
From: Paradise
2) Is the replacement tensioner the same as the one originally installed? Is the issue (according to BMW) that some/many of the original tensioners were installed incorrectly. Is it possible that some or many of us had ours installed correctly and will never need them replaced?
3) What is the average mileage that most people seem to experience this issue? or is it all over the board?
6th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,790
Likes: 10
From: Kansas City
My symptoms were the same as many others have described, my car was built in early Feb '09 and I first heard it at about 1000 miles. Shortly after that I took it to the dealer and they replaced the tensioner with no qualms. Since then, it has not done it once and I'm at about 11.5K miles now. I think it's fixed, for me anyway. I have never heard my car knock like I've heard in the vids posted, so I don't think mine has the hydraulic lifter problem. I do not do the 3K rev and shutdown.
I changed the oil at about 3K, and again at 10K and have only used 5W30 Mobil1 and the factory filter, fwiw.....
Porsche and Audi both had troubles with bad lifters when they introduced them in the mid 80's cars, and the solution was just to replace the lifters with a newer improved version, lending credence to Sequence's theory. However, the noise they made was the distincitve lifter rattle which sounds different than the knock I hear in the vids posted.
Again, I think there are two distinct and diffferent problems here, the chain tensioner that hits the case due to a bad tensioner - the problem I had - and the lifter knock, if that's what it is.
I changed the oil at about 3K, and again at 10K and have only used 5W30 Mobil1 and the factory filter, fwiw.....
Porsche and Audi both had troubles with bad lifters when they introduced them in the mid 80's cars, and the solution was just to replace the lifters with a newer improved version, lending credence to Sequence's theory. However, the noise they made was the distincitve lifter rattle which sounds different than the knock I hear in the vids posted.
Again, I think there are two distinct and diffferent problems here, the chain tensioner that hits the case due to a bad tensioner - the problem I had - and the lifter knock, if that's what it is.