Cold start chatter
#952
03-22-2009, 04:55 PM
[quote=Gil-galad;2708120]... sequence's shut down technique...[quote]
ooo that sounds so official, maybe tm that
... disclaimer: I dont know if SSDT even helps, Its worked for me, cant say it'd work for anyone else. It didnt work for our friend Couper out in MI; but he'd be banging at it awhile anyway. 
ooo that sounds so official, maybe tm that
... disclaimer: I dont know if SSDT even helps, Its worked for me, cant say it'd work for anyone else. It didnt work for our friend Couper out in MI; but he'd be banging at it awhile anyway.
#953
03-23-2009, 11:10 AM
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Ok, I'm worried now about whether we should continue to drive our 07 Mini. It has been doing this cold start chatter too. This weekend it got noticeably louder. We scheduled an appointment with the dealer (Ralph Schomp). At first, they told me it's normal!! 
I just talked to the guys in service & I told them about this thread. They said they hadn't heard of any of this with the 07 & newer ones. I've worked on a lot of old cars and it sounds like the lifters aren't filling up. I'm worried about what this is doing to the rockers and valves, etc. inside the motor.
I just talked to the guys in service & I told them about this thread. They said they hadn't heard of any of this with the 07 & newer ones. I've worked on a lot of old cars and it sounds like the lifters aren't filling up. I'm worried about what this is doing to the rockers and valves, etc. inside the motor.
#954
03-23-2009, 11:36 AM
Did you see Mr. Kung's reply (MINI USA Product Manager) to this question over on MotoringFile? It's the same tired, naive, unsatisfactory, "I haven't heard anything about it" response:
http://www.motoringfile.com/2009/03/...nie/#more-8741
It's so sad that MINI cannot find itself to be forthright with their loyal customers over this issue. The only way this present approach of theirs can end is badly.
I recommend you do your homework, arm yourself with facts, actual part numbers, etc., and don't let them buffalo you.
#955
03-23-2009, 01:59 PM
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My Sept build 09 S had the rattle once, at 2400 miles, about 2 months ago. It now has about 3300 miles, and has not done it since. What Ive done different is every time I power down the car, if it will sit for 6+ hours, is rev the engine to 3K then hit the stop button. I dont think it's the chain tensioner, I believe it's excessive valve lash and oil drain out of (and air fed into) the Hydraulic Lash Adjusters, coupled with a dead cold engine and quirks within the on-demand oil delivery system, that creates that metallic clanking noise; only when the air is replaced by oil, and the engine's metals heat up and expand, does the sound go away. I believe by revving the engine before power-down, this delivers a burst of oil to the HLAs and prevents oil from draining out and aereating the HLAs.
I could be completely off-base here, but V 3.0 fix is not working. BMW needs to look at the HLAs and the on-demand oil delivery system--indeed the entire valve train assembly--as the probable culprits. Oh and it's been plenty cold each AM after my first experience with the rattle, and it has not reappeared since I started to rev the engine before power down, even after NOT driving the car for a couple days. My parking spot is also dead-level; the fact that parking the car with the nose down, and the frequency of the rattle then, points to HLA oil drain...
Let us know how it goes for you and YumYum
I could be completely off-base here, but V 3.0 fix is not working. BMW needs to look at the HLAs and the on-demand oil delivery system--indeed the entire valve train assembly--as the probable culprits. Oh and it's been plenty cold each AM after my first experience with the rattle, and it has not reappeared since I started to rev the engine before power down, even after NOT driving the car for a couple days. My parking spot is also dead-level; the fact that parking the car with the nose down, and the frequency of the rattle then, points to HLA oil drain...
Let us know how it goes for you and YumYum
This sounds like a good approach and I'm going to also try this. I only have this issue with my 2008 when I start the engine from cold and back the car out of the garage to wash it. Then I let it sit for a few hours on the driveway. Later when I start it up again it will give me the cold engine noise. For me, it is related to not giving the engine enough time to warm up when I move it. If I pull the car out and drive it around until it warms up, and then wash the car - everything is fine. So, I'm going to give this a shot and rev it to 3k RPM and shut it off this weekend after I park it for a wash.
#956
03-23-2009, 04:08 PM
Ok, I'm worried now about whether we should continue to drive our 07 Mini. It has been doing this cold start chatter too. This weekend it got noticeably louder. We scheduled an appointment with the dealer (Ralph Schomp). At first, they told me it's normal!! I just talked to the guys in service & I told them about this thread. They said they hadn't heard of any of this with the 07 & newer ones. I've worked on a lot of old cars and it sounds like the lifters aren't filling up. I'm worried about what this is doing to the rockers and valves, etc. inside the motor.
I just talked to the guys in service & I told them about this thread. They said they hadn't heard of any of this with the 07 & newer ones. I've worked on a lot of old cars and it sounds like the lifters aren't filling up. I'm worried about what this is doing to the rockers and valves, etc. inside the motor.If U have a smartphone or Crackberry or any mobile device with a camera, date stamp, and audio recording capabilities record the sound--but do it inside, windows up, glovebox open. That's where it's the loudest. Most people record outside, bonnet up, and there's just too much noise this way. Also record temp, last time driven, etc.
Oh and make sure to leave yr car overnight and have them park with the nose tilted downward. Keep us posted.
#957
03-23-2009, 05:35 PM
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I'll tell ya we've known about this noise for about a month and it's been off and on, on start up. I was thinking about the slope of our drive way at first too. So, I tried parking it the opposite way and starting it in the morning, but it still did it.
It has definitely gotten worse and my wife came home today and said the engine light came/is on. Temperature doesn't seem to be it either as we're in Colorado and have big temp. changes from one day to the next. Last Sunday it was 79 deg. but when we had the car delivered it was well below zero and it didn't do it then. Now it it quite loud though when it does it...and I swear that motor is gonna go by the way it sounds. Sounds like no oil at the top.
It has definitely gotten worse and my wife came home today and said the engine light came/is on. Temperature doesn't seem to be it either as we're in Colorado and have big temp. changes from one day to the next. Last Sunday it was 79 deg. but when we had the car delivered it was well below zero and it didn't do it then. Now it it quite loud though when it does it...and I swear that motor is gonna go by the way it sounds. Sounds like no oil at the top.
#958
03-25-2009, 01:15 PM
R56 Cold Start Fix
I have the same problem. BMW released a potential "fix" memo as of 3/24/09. I am scheduled to go in for it. I will likely be one of the first in North America to go in for the fix. Here are the parts that were ordered: http://majesticphoenix.com/r56/r56_c...ine_fix_lr.jpg
#959
03-25-2009, 01:49 PM
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OK everyone - here's the latest timing chain fix info and part numbers, posted today on the UK-based MINI2 forum:
Not had time to get part numbers today, but the PuMA measure number is 10686850-12 and it was released on the 24/02/09,so it's pretty new.
Roma, if you give your dealer this PuMA measure number, that should be sufficient for your car to be sorted.
EDIT: Mike Ken, at the bottom of the PuMA measure it states, and I quote " If at any point an engine replacement is authorised via Customer Service or Technical Dept, make sure the latest modified tensioner is then swapped across from the original engine to the replacement (modified tensioners not supplied on RMFD engines until 03.2009 ) ".
So basically, that means that dealers should be putting modified tensioners on new engines, until new engines are supplied with them from stock. Ask for proof of this. The part number for the new tensioner is 11.31.7.598.956.
Not had time to get part numbers today, but the PuMA measure number is 10686850-12 and it was released on the 24/02/09,so it's pretty new.
Roma, if you give your dealer this PuMA measure number, that should be sufficient for your car to be sorted.
EDIT: Mike Ken, at the bottom of the PuMA measure it states, and I quote " If at any point an engine replacement is authorised via Customer Service or Technical Dept, make sure the latest modified tensioner is then swapped across from the original engine to the replacement (modified tensioners not supplied on RMFD engines until 03.2009 ) ".
So basically, that means that dealers should be putting modified tensioners on new engines, until new engines are supplied with them from stock. Ask for proof of this. The part number for the new tensioner is 11.31.7.598.956.
#960
03-25-2009, 03:33 PM
I have the same problem. BMW released a potential "fix" memo as of 3/24/09. I am scheduled to go in for it. I will likely be one of the first in North America to go in for the fix. Here are the parts that were ordered: http://majesticphoenix.com/r56/r56_c...ine_fix_lr.jpg
Every cold start death rattle sufferer should be armed with a copy when they approach their SA.
#961
03-25-2009, 03:38 PM
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#962
03-26-2009, 12:17 PM
For what it's worth...
I just sent this e-mail to my SA. I'll be very interested to hear her response. If nothing else, it puts me on record has having complained about the issue.
Ann,
My 2009 MCS (purchased in November, 3300 miles on it) exhibited the 7th episode this morning of the “Cold Start Chatter” documented thoroughly on the NAM site (nearly 300 posts about this problem, see https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ms-issues-188/).
It sounds exactly like this (click here). (hyper link to: http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t...Outsidecar.flv)
I know if I bring the car in, it is very unlikely to happen in the shop unless I leave it there for a week or more and your mechanics do a cold start frequently. And even then, since only lasts for a few minutes, it’s hard to imagine they could accomplish anything before the noise disappears. Nevertheless, it’s not the kind of problem I can ignore, nor should Rasmussen or BMW/Mini. It really sounds like damage is being done to the engine.
Is there any new information from Mini about this problem? Is there anything that can be done? What should I do at this point? I love the car, but I’m very concerned that if this continues I’m going to be facing some expensive repairs that will most likely happen after the warranty expires. If you were sitting in my chair and experienced this problem, what would you do?
Ann,
My 2009 MCS (purchased in November, 3300 miles on it) exhibited the 7th episode this morning of the “Cold Start Chatter” documented thoroughly on the NAM site (nearly 300 posts about this problem, see https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ms-issues-188/).
It sounds exactly like this (click here). (hyper link to: http://s161.photobucket.com/albums/t...Outsidecar.flv)
I know if I bring the car in, it is very unlikely to happen in the shop unless I leave it there for a week or more and your mechanics do a cold start frequently. And even then, since only lasts for a few minutes, it’s hard to imagine they could accomplish anything before the noise disappears. Nevertheless, it’s not the kind of problem I can ignore, nor should Rasmussen or BMW/Mini. It really sounds like damage is being done to the engine.
Is there any new information from Mini about this problem? Is there anything that can be done? What should I do at this point? I love the car, but I’m very concerned that if this continues I’m going to be facing some expensive repairs that will most likely happen after the warranty expires. If you were sitting in my chair and experienced this problem, what would you do?
#963
03-26-2009, 02:59 PM
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BigHarv: The service advisors at the PDX MINI dealer are fortunately among the few SA's who are knowledgable about the timing chain issue, and don't BS the customers. They know it's not right, and have also been frustrated by the failure of previous repair fixes offered by BMW.
BMW just last month released version 3 of the fix for the defective timing chain tensioner. Two previous versions were ineffective. The latest mod includes a new spring-oil pressure operated chain tensioner, and depending on installed measurements, new timing chain, guides, sprockets, and Vanos unit. Based on forum reports, some parts are still in critically short supply, so repairs may take some time, due to parts delivery from Germany.
I've just recently spoken with the Rasmussan SA's to schedule the tensioner update on my '07 MCS, and they report the latest timing chain repair kit (Feb '09 version) does indeed silence the start-up "death rattle". No returns so far. The Brits on the UK-based MINI2 forum are also reporting positive results.
You've got lots of company with the unacceptable start-up rattle. Potentially BMW will need to replace every timing chain tensioner on every turbo version of the MINI engine from the very first '07 MINI to cars produced up to March '09, when the latest revised tensioner went into new engines.
BMW just last month released version 3 of the fix for the defective timing chain tensioner. Two previous versions were ineffective. The latest mod includes a new spring-oil pressure operated chain tensioner, and depending on installed measurements, new timing chain, guides, sprockets, and Vanos unit. Based on forum reports, some parts are still in critically short supply, so repairs may take some time, due to parts delivery from Germany.
I've just recently spoken with the Rasmussan SA's to schedule the tensioner update on my '07 MCS, and they report the latest timing chain repair kit (Feb '09 version) does indeed silence the start-up "death rattle". No returns so far. The Brits on the UK-based MINI2 forum are also reporting positive results.
You've got lots of company with the unacceptable start-up rattle. Potentially BMW will need to replace every timing chain tensioner on every turbo version of the MINI engine from the very first '07 MINI to cars produced up to March '09, when the latest revised tensioner went into new engines.
Last edited by oldMGguy; 03-26-2009 at 04:59 PM.
#964
03-26-2009, 03:08 PM
OldMGuy,
Thanks for the good news (best I've had all day, but then it's not been a great day).
I haven't heard back from Rasmussen yet, but I'll wait until next week before I bug them.
Are you local, i.e. Portland Metro?
Thanks again,
Harv
Thanks for the good news (best I've had all day, but then it's not been a great day).
I haven't heard back from Rasmussen yet, but I'll wait until next week before I bug them.
Are you local, i.e. Portland Metro?
Thanks again,
Harv
BigHarv: The service advisors at the PDX MINI dealer are fortunately among the few SA's who are knowledgable about the timing chain issue, and don't BS the customers. They know it's not right, and have also been frustrated by the failure of previous repair fixes offered by BMW.
BMW just last month released version 3 of the fix for the defective timing chain tensioner. Two previous versions were ineffective. The latest mod includes a new spring-oil pressure operated chain tensioner, and depending on installed measurements, new timing chain, guides, sprockets, and Vanos unit. Based on forum reports, some parts are still in critically short supply, so repairs may take some time, due to parts delivery from Germany.
I've just recently spoken with the Rasmussan SA's to schedule the tensioner update on my '07 MCS, and they report the latest timing chain repair kit (Feb '09 version) does indeed silence the start-up "death rattle". No returns so far. The Brits on the UK-based MINI2 forum are also reporting positive results.
You've got lots of company with the unacceptable start-up rattle. Potentially BMW will need to replace every timing chain tensioner on every turbo version of the MINI engine since the very first '07 car to cars produced until March '09, when the latest revised tensioner went into new engines.
BMW just last month released version 3 of the fix for the defective timing chain tensioner. Two previous versions were ineffective. The latest mod includes a new spring-oil pressure operated chain tensioner, and depending on installed measurements, new timing chain, guides, sprockets, and Vanos unit. Based on forum reports, some parts are still in critically short supply, so repairs may take some time, due to parts delivery from Germany.
I've just recently spoken with the Rasmussan SA's to schedule the tensioner update on my '07 MCS, and they report the latest timing chain repair kit (Feb '09 version) does indeed silence the start-up "death rattle". No returns so far. The Brits on the UK-based MINI2 forum are also reporting positive results.
You've got lots of company with the unacceptable start-up rattle. Potentially BMW will need to replace every timing chain tensioner on every turbo version of the MINI engine since the very first '07 car to cars produced until March '09, when the latest revised tensioner went into new engines.
#965
03-27-2009, 07:38 AM
My MINI is in the line-up for the version 3 fix. I think we are all waiting for parts to arrive. I'm not sure what will determine the order. I have been told that the dealership needs to verify, through their technicians, that your MINI has the problem before they are authorized to make the repair.
For those that experience the sound themselves but the dealer never hears it, I am going to start a thread that deals with how to duplicate the sound for the dealer to hear.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...or-dealer.html
Last edited by Mini2na; 03-27-2009 at 11:32 AM.
#966
03-27-2009, 10:14 AM
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My trip to the Mini dealer here in CO (Ralph Schomp) on Weds.
OK,
I took a video of what our mini sounded like when it made the noise. Of course, by the time I drove to the dealer and started it back up, it didn't do it for them. so the tech and I watched the video and he did hear it.
What they said they found surprised me. They said the check engine light was triped because of the cam sensor. BUT, they said that was probably because our mini was 3 (THREE!!) quarts low on oil. Our car has 9200 miles on it (We bought it with 6700 miles) and there are no spots from it leaking. This car has never had any service done to it until now. We were told that we don't need to go in for an oil change until the car says service. I've checked the oil in the car and never could tell were the oil level was on the dip stick. I guess this might explain why I had such a hard time reading the dip stick. One service guy was telling me that a turbo engine can expect up to a quart of oil consumption every 1k miles (
With 9200 mile on this car, I ain't buyin' that ****!). The other service guy had an explanation that seemed like a possibility. He thought maybe it came from the manufacture that way and never was topped off at the dealer in CA before it went to the original owner.
Then I started thinking. The check engine light came on last Monday. Then went off and never showed up again. We had the check oil light come on only 2 times, then it went right back off. Once when we were in the mountains making turns and once in a parking lot foolin around. We had made a hard turn each time. But, if the Mini was really 3 quarts low, wouldn't the damn oil light be on all the time? How many quarts does the thing hold...4-5 maybe?? We had a Grand cherokee that the oil light would come on if it was 1 quart low.
It hasn't done it again as of Weds. Thursday, we didn't drive it because we got a blizzard. I will continue to watch this very closely now.Might be Sat. before we can get it out though!
I took a video of what our mini sounded like when it made the noise. Of course, by the time I drove to the dealer and started it back up, it didn't do it for them. so the tech and I watched the video and he did hear it.
What they said they found surprised me. They said the check engine light was triped because of the cam sensor. BUT, they said that was probably because our mini was 3 (THREE!!) quarts low on oil. Our car has 9200 miles on it (We bought it with 6700 miles) and there are no spots from it leaking. This car has never had any service done to it until now. We were told that we don't need to go in for an oil change until the car says service. I've checked the oil in the car and never could tell were the oil level was on the dip stick. I guess this might explain why I had such a hard time reading the dip stick. One service guy was telling me that a turbo engine can expect up to a quart of oil consumption every 1k miles (
With 9200 mile on this car, I ain't buyin' that ****!). The other service guy had an explanation that seemed like a possibility. He thought maybe it came from the manufacture that way and never was topped off at the dealer in CA before it went to the original owner. Then I started thinking. The check engine light came on last Monday. Then went off and never showed up again. We had the check oil light come on only 2 times, then it went right back off. Once when we were in the mountains making turns and once in a parking lot foolin around. We had made a hard turn each time. But, if the Mini was really 3 quarts low, wouldn't the damn oil light be on all the time? How many quarts does the thing hold...4-5 maybe?? We had a Grand cherokee that the oil light would come on if it was 1 quart low.
It hasn't done it again as of Weds. Thursday, we didn't drive it because we got a blizzard. I will continue to watch this very closely now.Might be Sat. before we can get it out though!
#968
03-27-2009, 12:38 PM
OK,
I took a video of what our mini sounded like when it made the noise. Of course, by the time I drove to the dealer and started it back up, it didn't do it for them. so the tech and I watched the video and he did hear it.
What they said they found surprised me. They said the check engine light was triped because of the cam sensor. BUT, they said that was probably because our mini was 3 (THREE!!) quarts low on oil. Our car has 9200 miles on it (We bought it with 6700 miles) and there are no spots from it leaking. This car has never had any service done to it until now. We were told that we don't need to go in for an oil change until the car says service. I've checked the oil in the car and never could tell were the oil level was on the dip stick. I guess this might explain why I had such a hard time reading the dip stick. One service guy was telling me that a turbo engine can expect up to a quart of oil consumption every 1k miles (With 9200 mile on this car, I ain't buyin' that ****!). The other service guy had an explanation that seemed like a possibility. He thought maybe it came from the manufacture that way and never was topped off at the dealer in CA before it went to the original owner.
Then I started thinking. The check engine light came on last Monday. Then went off and never showed up again. We had the check oil light come on only 2 times, then it went right back off. Once when we were in the mountains making turns and once in a parking lot foolin around. We had made a hard turn each time. But, if the Mini was really 3 quarts low, wouldn't the damn oil light be on all the time? How many quarts does the thing hold...4-5 maybe?? We had a Grand cherokee that the oil light would come on if it was 1 quart low.
It hasn't done it again as of Weds. Thursday, we didn't drive it because we got a blizzard. I will continue to watch this very closely now.Might be Sat. before we can get it out though!
I took a video of what our mini sounded like when it made the noise. Of course, by the time I drove to the dealer and started it back up, it didn't do it for them. so the tech and I watched the video and he did hear it.
What they said they found surprised me. They said the check engine light was triped because of the cam sensor. BUT, they said that was probably because our mini was 3 (THREE!!) quarts low on oil. Our car has 9200 miles on it (We bought it with 6700 miles) and there are no spots from it leaking. This car has never had any service done to it until now. We were told that we don't need to go in for an oil change until the car says service. I've checked the oil in the car and never could tell were the oil level was on the dip stick. I guess this might explain why I had such a hard time reading the dip stick. One service guy was telling me that a turbo engine can expect up to a quart of oil consumption every 1k miles (
With 9200 mile on this car, I ain't buyin' that ****!). The other service guy had an explanation that seemed like a possibility. He thought maybe it came from the manufacture that way and never was topped off at the dealer in CA before it went to the original owner. Then I started thinking. The check engine light came on last Monday. Then went off and never showed up again. We had the check oil light come on only 2 times, then it went right back off. Once when we were in the mountains making turns and once in a parking lot foolin around. We had made a hard turn each time. But, if the Mini was really 3 quarts low, wouldn't the damn oil light be on all the time? How many quarts does the thing hold...4-5 maybe?? We had a Grand cherokee that the oil light would come on if it was 1 quart low.
It hasn't done it again as of Weds. Thursday, we didn't drive it because we got a blizzard. I will continue to watch this very closely now.Might be Sat. before we can get it out though!
these are such noisy engines, that's why it's better to record the sound inside the car...
#969
03-27-2009, 02:57 PM
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First I had to take yr. bold out. Second the Cold Start clank/bang/rattle that has something to do with excessive dry valve lash doesnt throw codes nor trip the CEL. Engine runs smooth other than the obnoxious syncopated banging sound coming from just forward of yr. glove box.
these are such noisy engines, that's why it's better to record the sound inside the car...
these are such noisy engines, that's why it's better to record the sound inside the car...
You don't like bold?? The dealer said the cam sensor is what set off the check engine light, but if even if it did, why didn't the low oil level trip a sensor??? That was my question...They did say that they've had 3 minis with the timing chain tensioner issue, but that's all they said.AND you're welcome MINIspud!
#970
03-27-2009, 08:18 PM
#971
03-28-2009, 09:21 AM
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If you get a morning start-up that sounds like a bicycle chain dragging across a metal pipe, the answer would be "no". With a bit of digging thru the databases, your MINI service advisor should be able to determine which tensioner part was installed on your engine's build date (not the car's assembly date).
Last edited by oldMGguy; 03-29-2009 at 08:28 PM.
#973
03-30-2009, 05:58 PM
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OK, everyone, just got word from Ann, the world's nicest SA at Portland's Rasmussen MINI, that BMW has moved on to Version 3.1 of the start-up "death rattle' repairs. BMW/MINI has just sent a directive to their dealers to now replace everything - new tensioner, guides, chain, sprockets, and Vanos unit. The job takes two shop days to accomplish. The right front inner fender liner is removed to provide access to the front of the engine. Apparently, just replacing the tensioner unit alone wasn't completely solving the problem. Ann also says she is able to get all the parts needed without significant delays.
Again, a tip of the hat to Rasmussen MINI for doing the right thing for their MINI customers!
A link to all the parts being replaced:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...24&hg=11&fg=25
Again, a tip of the hat to Rasmussen MINI for doing the right thing for their MINI customers!
A link to all the parts being replaced:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...24&hg=11&fg=25
Last edited by oldMGguy; 03-30-2009 at 06:04 PM.
#974
03-30-2009, 06:05 PM
OK, everyone, just got word from Ann, the world's nicest SA at Portland's Rasmussen MINI, that BMW has moved on to Version 3.1 of the start-up "death rattle' repairs. BMW/MINI has just sent a directive to their dealers to now replace everything - new tensioner, guides, chain, sprockets, and Vanos unit. The job takes two shop days to accomplish. The right front inner fender liner is removed to provide access to the front of the engine. Apparently, just replacing the tensioner unit alone wasn't completely solving the problem. Ann also says she is able to get all the parts needed without significant delays.
Again, a tip of the hat to Rasmussen MINI for doing the right thing for their MINI customers!
A link to all the parts being replaced:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...31&hg=11&fg=25
Again, a tip of the hat to Rasmussen MINI for doing the right thing for their MINI customers!
A link to all the parts being replaced:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...31&hg=11&fg=25
Anyways, assuming the fix actually works, sweet! Thanks for letting us know.
#975
03-30-2009, 06:25 PM
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It covers any '07-'09 MINI with the turbo engine. And, yes, the dealer must be shown the problem exists in your car. That may change ...