Dominic, if it is not an official event, why does anyone need to take responsibility? If i were to get a group of friends together and say "Hey, let's go to Vegas!" would i need to get liability insurance or have them sign a waiver?

Why should anyone have to take responsibilty if it is not an official club event? It's just people coming to Vegas to hang out. We would all hate to see the trip get cancelled, especially if we had no idea WHY it was cancelled.

I just see no reason to cancel this get-together. But, I would imagine people could still come whether it is cancelled or not.

Anyone still want to come?

 

Thats what I was thinking, too, Donovan. I mean, every year, about 10 of my old buddies from High School and I get together and go golfing. One person arranges the tee times and finds a hotel to stay in, and then we all show up. From what I'm reading here, we need insurance to do that. What about a family reunion?

I would understand if there was going to be some kind of autocross, or other formal activity.

I guess I'm missing something. I apologize if I offended anyone, I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

I live about 3000 miles or so from Vegas, and I wasn't planning on attending anyway, so I guess I should just shut up.

 

I also do not want to offend anyone, specifically Dominic. I am just trying to figure this out. I, too, must be missing something.

 

reason for insurance atleast my understanding

worst case scenario, somebody gets in an accident and dies. The co-ordinator of the even can be held legally responsible, because it was the co-ordinator's planning that lead to the accident, had a differnet route been chosen, you may not have this situation.

With the world the way it is, everybody is sue happy, and i'm sure once a lawyer, mentions they could go after the co-ordinator, they would do so. Most people don't have the ***** to take responsability for their own actions, so they are quick to blame somebody else.

Hope this helps.

 

No one's being offended. I like a good discussion.

Unfortunately in the USA, there are too many sue happy people. People who jump onto a bus after it crashes to file a false claim. Someone who hurts themselves at a supermarket and sues the supermarket. A person walking around a car show and "snags" themselves on a bumper and sues the organizers or the owner of the parking lot.

Many places where you have events hosted will require the host/coordinator to show proof of liability insurance. So when you get to the spot where you want to have an organized group of cars stop in a city, that city may require you to show them proof of insurance (no not your personal auto insurance, but real group liability insurance).

Since I am coordinating this, I need to ensure the event have a proper sponsor with valid liability insurance to cover if anything nasty happens. That's why it's called insurance. To insure that things will be OK if anything bad were to happen. That's what insurance is all about. Its to protect the people purchasing it.

Think of it this way. May people become incorporated when going into business. With incorporation if anything were to happen to the corporation, the assests of the shareholders and officers cannot be touched. People can only sue and take from the corporation entity (there's a specific business term for this, but it escapes me at present). Many corps will then purchase insurance to help offset if anything were to happen.

Anytime you organize something, that organizer will held responsible if anything were to happen. This is why things need to get done via corporations with the extra security blanket of a good insurance policy.

However, when someone tells me to do it a certain way, that they themselves wouldn't do, then clearly something's wrong. Some people believe in liability waivers, others dont. But when I've asked a couple of people, who told me all I need to do is to have people sign waivers, if they themselves would take the responsibility of having their name at the top of the waiver form and their name associated with running the event, then they immediately stepped back and said NO. Why is this? Did they believe enough in a liability waiver form to tell me to use one? Apparently not.

Hopefully I don't have any typographical errors in the above. I don't have time to go back an proofread...busy at work today.

 

Precisely the reason no one should take responsibility for the event. Everyone can take responsibility for themselves.

My opinion.

 

Dominic,

I'm sure you have done more behind the scenes work than I am aware of (the website doesn't say much right now). What kinds of activities were you planning?

Something that just came to my mind, though, is that the Dragon Run coming up this spring won't have a sponsor or insurance. And that is an event that someone has "organized" and that specifically will involve people driving quickly on a very curvy mountain road.

 

I am still not getting it... if i organize a class reunion at the Bellagio am I required to show liability insurance? Seriously, I am asking.

What exactly are you coordinating? Are there planned driving events? Are there events planned for the Stardust or other Vegas property?

If there aren't, what is it exactly you are insuring? Again, not being a smart @$$, I'm asking.

By the way, in regard to waivers, there is an event in Nevada called the Silver State Classic where a stretch of highway is shut down and people can drive as fast as they want. Their site boasts: "You pick the speed at which you want to drive, from 95 to 180 miles per hour, or even unlimited speed..."

In terms of liability, their site has one sentence: "Each person admitted must complete and sign all releases of liability."

They are driving dangerous speeds. We just want to hang out.

Bottom line this for me. Are you saying that we cannot just get together and hang out without insurance or waivers?

 

>>I am still not getting it... if i organize a class reunion at the Bellagio am I required to show liability insurance? Seriously, I am asking.

A class reunion cannot be compared to motoring activities. There will be fun-runs that travel to different places around Southern Nevada. Those will clearly need to be covered. Remember this is an event with lots of smaller events.

>>What exactly are you coordinating? Are there planned driving events? Are there events planned for the Stardust or other Vegas property?

I've coordinated much of the weekend with help from others. There are four driving events on the schedule. All day saturday at the track. Fun-runs on Satuday morning, Saturday afternoon, Saturday night after dinner cruising the strip, and Sunday brunch run to Hoover Dam. As far as using the Stardust's property, these things haven't been hammered down yet for the party or the dinner (but that's a different story).

>>If there aren't, what is it exactly you are insuring? Again, not being a smart @$$, I'm asking.

Good questions. No harm in asking. What's being insured is the event as a whole and any of the sub-events (like fun-runs). The insurance company that was to be covering the event, needed to know the dates and location of the whole event and also dates and destinations of each of the fun-runs to be held.

>>By the way, in regard to waivers, there is an event in Nevada called the Silver State Classic where a stretch of highway is shut down and people can drive as fast as they want. Their site boasts: "You pick the speed at which you want to drive, from 95 to 180 miles per hour, or even unlimited speed..."
>>In terms of liability, their site has one sentence: "Each person admitted must complete and sign all releases of liability."
>>They are driving dangerous speeds. We just want to hang out.

I bet they have to show an insurance policy to the Dept of Transportation for the State of Nevada prior to the State allowing them to shut down the streach of highway. I urge you to call up your local Dept of Transportation and see what they require from you to shut down a section of their freeway. Please, let us know what you find out.

>>Bottom line this for me. Are you saying that we cannot just get together and hang out without insurance or waivers?

Try organizing a hangout with 40 cars in a parking lot. See what happens. First the police will show up and ask if you have permission to use the parking lot and even require you to show city approval of your gathering. Then when you go to ask the property owner for permission, they'll ask you to show them your liability coverage, because they sure won't want to be covering you with theirs (and more than likely their policy would not cover such a thing).

As with many things in life in the US, consult with an attourney as they will have much better information for you than I can provide.

 

>>I'm sure you have done more behind the scenes work than I am aware of (the website doesn't say much right now). What kinds of activities were you planning?

Sorry the information was removed from the site until the event can be covered by insurance. There are 4 different motoring/fun runs, at least two social events. NorCal MINIs is also organizing a track day in Pahrump. Webb Motorsports is conducting a "pulley party".

>>Something that just came to my mind, though, is that the Dragon Run coming up this spring won't have a sponsor or insurance. And that is an event that someone has "organized" and that specifically will involve people driving quickly on a very curvy mountain road.

Yes good luck to them. I hope nothing bad happens to them. I wish them all the best. Even one of my local MINI friends will be travelling out there this spring to participate.

 

Let me just throw this out here.....earlier this year when a bunch of us met in NC for the Dragon Run, NOBODY that I know of signed any kind of waiver. We all just showed up for 3 days of driving and fun.... :smile:

Yes - it was ORGANIZED by several people, and we called it an event, but in reality, it was just a bunch of MINIacs getting together (by their own choice) to have a great time with other MINI owners. :smile:

Couldn't this Las Vegas Vacation be considered in the same category???

Chow!

Donna

 

That is what I want to get to the bottom of! I just can't imagine how this event still can't go ahead as planned. This can still be alot of fun even if it is just a bunch of motorers figuring things out on-the-fly. (Is there a better way to figure things out?!)

FYI, I am currently communicating with the local PT Cruiser Club (gasp!) to see how they handle their events.

 

>>Couldn't this Las Vegas Vacation be considered in the same category???

Donna, if you'd like to have your name or your club's name associated with the event, then by all means, let me know and I will relinquish those responsibilities over to you or your club. I value my assests much too much to have my name on this event without any liability coverage in place. That's why I went to great lengths to secure liability coverage thru the club I belong to called Arizona Mini Owners. And that's why this event, when made official was Arizona Mini Owners event that I happen to be coordinating for them as one of their members. That's the beauty of belonging to a club and having the insurance coverage. Now that this insurance will be going away one week prior to the Vegas event, I need to find a new liability sponsor. If I don't attain any in the very near future, I will be shutting down the event. I cannot take that personal risk. Again, if you do, please let us know.

 

>>That is what I want to get to the bottom of! I just can't imagine how this event still can't go ahead as planned. This can still be alot of fun even if it is just a bunch of motorers figuring things out on-the-fly. (Is there a better way to figure things out?!)

It can certainly go on as planned IF someone else steps up and assumes the liability for if anything bad were to happen. I cannot make that size of gamble. Sure it's Las Vegas, but I'm not going to gamble on losing my house, having my wages garnished for the rest of my known working career. If you (or anyone else) can, then by all means, say so and this insurance crap will be behind us. I'll gladly turn all liability over to anyone who wants it.

 

>>That is what I want to get to the bottom of! I just can't imagine how this event still can't go ahead as planned. This can still be alot of fun even if it is just a bunch of motorers figuring things out on-the-fly. (Is there a better way to figure things out?!)
>
I WILL be in Vegas on those dates and if someone sees me and follows me or if 50 people follow each other I don't see what the problem is. I have driven to Vegas quite a few times and the 15 is PACKED. Did Vegas organize this by placing ads everywhere saying, "Come to Vegas"?

I mean a few million people go there every year so what if I go there and you go there?

Earl

 

Chow!

Donna

 

I still do not know why anyone has to be responsible for this? Activities are planned all the time without anyone having to assume responsibility. I must be the slowest person on this site, and for that, I apologize. I just wish I could understand why someone has to have their name on this event and make it their responsibility.

What if you just said....

Hey! A bunch of us are going to Vegas! We're staying at the Stardust and perhaps we can motor out to Hoover Dam and Red Rock!. We'll get together for a meal or 2 but it's every man/woman for themselves! Who's in?

Does that paragraph require you to get insurance or have everyone sign waivers? I know we live in a society where people sue each other at the drop of a hat, but at what point does a person claim responsibility? Does that announcement in the previous paragraph make you responsible for the people who attend?

Where is the line drawn?

 

that anouncement would not require insurance... now if 50 people showed up, then you would need insurance, because you started "the gathering".

and you could be held responsible for anything that happens.

regardless, i will still be going to vegas on those days, as will others. If we meet up cool, if not

 

regardless, i will still be going to vegas on those days, as will others. If we meet up cool, if not

sounds to me like the show will go on

 

Not to beat this liability issue to death but it is there to protect those that are participating in this event from persons or property that are not associated with the event. We all have limits on our auto policies. What happens when those limits are reached and passed? As a member of Arizona Mini Owners I feel bad about the turn of events that has lead to this event not being covered by insurance. I feel as a club we have let down a member and everyone wanting to take part in this event. I believe that in time this could be worked out, but there is not enough time to get this straigntened out before this event. But as a twenty five year MIni enthusiast I will still be going this Feb. And I will enjoy my MIni vacation. Hope I will see some of you there.

Pat

 

I am not sure my question has been answered. I mean, I know why liability insurance is important, i just don't see a need for it in this case. Individual owners can do whatever they want. They can all hang out together or they can do things in smaller groups or they can do things on their own. It's people hanging out. You don't have to have liability waivers and insurance policies every time a few owners get together. It's rediculous. By that rationale you would never be able to hang out with other owners without someone being held responsible. Either that or you would have to invite people by saying: "Some owners may be congregating at an area in town. Not sure who will be there. We'll see what happens." Come on!

Insurance and waivers serve a purpose, but not in this case. How do I know? Because whether someone takes responsibility for this event or not, people are going to attend.

 

Okay, I'm done. I'll stop going on and on and on.........

 

Donovan, I've been trying to answer your question. Maybe to me your question is not the same as the one you think you're answering...or vice versa. It may be that I'm just not getting thru or you're not getting thru to me. Whatever it may be, I'll try a little differently approach to answer your question.

1. This event is beyond the scope of just an inpromtu gathering. This event has been to the point of requiring some entity to be held liable for organizing it.

2. This event has been my idea but has been run thru Arizona Mini Owners.

3. This event was covered by AMO's insurance, now it does not.

4. I will not have my name nor Arizona Mini Owner's name associated with the scope of event this has become. See reasons #1 and #3.

5. I along with Arizona Mini Owners will gracefully bow out with enough time for anyone to make alternate plans with their time. That is why I gave a deadline of 5 weeks prior to get this insurance straightened out.

I must again state that this is an event and not just a casual meeting or gathering. See #1. Without understanding item #1, the talk of liability cannot even come into the discussion. Contact a lawyer/attorney for specifics on this.

Donovan, I really hope I don't sound harsh, I just want you to understand the bad position both Arizona Mini Owners and I would be in if we continued to carry this event along without insurance to cover it.

 

Dominic,

What if each participating MINI Club has its members sign a liability waiver in order to participate in what is actually a multi-club gathering? Is that too simplistic?

Long Beach MINI had all participants/guests at its Poker Rally sign liability waivers. If it's good enough for a big MINI dealership, why is it not applicable in this case?

I appreciate all the work you've put into this. Hasn't it been in the works for almost a year? Let's try to salvage it somehow. Maybe MINIUSA needs to get involved! Or what about the GOmini magazine?

Just tossing out a few ideas...


Clo/Wanda

 

Dominic, I understand that you have put a great deal of time and effort into this I didn't mean to minimize it, by any means. Did you say before that you frown upon Motorers signing a waiver? I have noticed this to be a common practice for events such as these. In fact, I help organize and manage one of the nations largest single-day car shows each year in Northeast Ohio. For the last 15 years we have averaged 1,000 classic and antique cars and 100,000 people. Our protection? A liability waiver on all car registration and event literature.

_________________
Donovan