I am just curious about one thing. I have been a long time member on the forums, and have even been an Alliance member. Today I posted about a product that I found on the net, pertaining to the R56. I posted it, with a link and a picture. I have done this many times before, and haven't had any problems. But today, my thread gets locked down, picture and link removed and some rule guideline as to why. So am I correct in understanding that as a community of MINI owners, we are not allowed to post a product from a vendor unless that vendor is an "authorized vendor" on NAM? I mean, come on people this is unacceptable. So if someone comes out with a part, that they have made in there garage and would possibly have some people interested in buying it, they have to register with NAM to even talk about it, and becoming an authorized vendor on here isn't cheap. Not unless you have a company that already has their foot in the MINI scene, and their name is known by the MINI community are they even going to be making enough money to even think about becoming a vendor. This in my opinion is just bad for the MINI community. I mean for example. When the auto sport button mod came out, and it was just made by some guy/gal in there garage, and they asked if anyone was interested in one...would they get shut down because they didn't pay the $200 vendor fee? I just don't understand the thought process behind these "new" rules. Don't you think it is counter productive to not allow new products to even be discussed on here without you "behind the curtain" getting your piece of the pie? Feel free to inform me if what I am saying is incorrect, and by all means if this post fits into the reason for banning then do it. I mean is my opinion being posted allowed if it pertains to the NAM Curtain Rules?

 

I'm a newbie here, but I'v ebeen active on automotive forums for a decade or so... I saw the thread you are referring to, and it certainly seems heavy handed. Those types of rules tend to stifle participation, and ultimately traffic these forums. I hope the powers that be will reconsider rules which disallow any reference to products or websites that are not on an "approved" list.

The other board I frequent is for a different vehicle, but is the best one I have participated in, it is more active that NAM but started out as a small board and has grown significantly, they allow any/all products to be mentioned/linked and even have a free section for users who develop and sell products. They also have a paid vendor section and advertising banners. Their theory is to remain hands off unless needed, which has created a great, civil, atmosphere. It has paid off big time, as I have seen the board grow exponentially since I joined 6 years ago. In the same time, I have seen virtually all the vendor sponsored boards for those vehicles disappear, most only allowed approved products/vendors to be mentioned.

 

Well for starters the rules aren't new at all.

Secondly, those that are vendors do pay for a privilege, and in the words of many of the complaints I get from them when they come across someone trying to skirt the rules for personal profit "Why should I pay my vendor fees when someone else can sell their stuff through NAM?"

Furthermore, I have discussed this with IB, and they acknowledge the difference between standing companies and the guy making parts in his garage on the weekends, and unless you contact them and discuss the matter with them individually, then you don't know what agreement they'd be willing to come to with your business, I've said it many times before to several different people. For the record those that have complained to me about this are the ones that did not go through the proper channels at all, but instead merely complained that the rules were enforced, and they've usually had third party claims about the pricing, which were typically inaccurate. The guidelines are there when you sign up, this is a private site, you agree to follow within the rules when you join, if you don't you can be held subject to sanctions, anywhere from verbally warning on up to strikes.

As to your piece of the pie comment, all the moderation done on this site is voluntarily done by people that are just glad to help out the community, including responding to public hissy fits by members who fail to calmly and civilly PM someone for clarification.

As to the whole deep offense you have to the "man behind the curtain" comment, are you familiar with the wizard of oz? "Pay no attention to the Man behind the curtain" The little guy in the big city of oz that helped people find their way; rather similar to what I think a good Admin or Moderator should do, be here to help the community; individuals with site usage and keep the site as a whole reflective of the community and it's needs.

In regards to the company you posted about in particular, they have been contacted and informed that posts about their products would be removed until an agreement is in place, once they've got one setup I'd be happy to reopen that thread as well as the others they started about a month ago.

 

Well, let me start off by commenting on your public hissy fits comment. You can call it what you will, but I feel this is the "Site Feedback" section and I felt it would be a place where I could sound off and give others the opportunity to voice their opinions also. So you can call it what you will, but I felt this was a public discussion not a private one.
I still don't quite understand how you pick and choose a specific vendor as ok and another one as you need to pay up. What if I posted this link http://www.dsldevelopments.com/brodi...e&currency=usd
As far as I know they aren't an authorized NAM vendor, would this thread get shut down and the link removed? I see discussion all over the forum about products, a lot of which aren't provided by authorized vendors so how do you choose? Another example would be, what if I am discussing wheels from lets say www.1010tires.com would it be locked down because it isn't Tire Rack? This is where the line is blurred and it doesn't seem to make sense, because it is just someone's opinion as to what is approved and not. Feel free to sound off and let me know once again that I am just throwing a hissy fit and not being calm or civil about this....but I feel I am being calm and civil, just maybe not to your standard.

 

It seems improper to close the thread because its not like masterd owns or is selling the product Its doing the 'community' a favor by letting us know that something exists. Like when someone with no affiliation owns a blog and posts about new products.

Is the difference that he didnt purchase ,and install it on his car?

If i were to post up a product, probably share a link or two, then a pic of it on my car, itll probably sound like an advertisement. If they are not a vendor, it sounds as though its a lock, but IIRC it happens everyday on here, as it should...we're here to learn

(I obviously cannot see what posts were deleted, so forgive me if I missed something direly important)

 

Read what I said above.....
So unless you're shilling for the other businesses, go ahead and mention and discuss them; if they've been told their products aren't allowed until they get an agreement in place then the threads will be pulled.

BTW you've taken this company's status much more to heart than the guy who claims to have designed the product and run the company.

 

I think the problem here was that the "product" in question was brought forth by a member, who was producing and selling the product. That member was informed he needs a vendor agreement in order to sell on NAM. A second account was then used by the same member to try and sell the same product, in an attempt to skirt the system. This does not exactly endear the member OR the company/product to moderation staff or to IB.

You can either pay the fees and advertise, or not pay the fees and don't advertise. It's quite simple. These "new rules" are neither new nor complicated.

Links to non-vendors are permitted. They just are not allowed by the vendor or by anyone affiliated with the vendor. Shilling is not permitted. It's all in the Site Guidelines, spelled out rather clearly.

 

The problem is, I am in no way affiliated with the company. I just found the product and thought I'd post about a new intake. As you can see I have been a member since 2007 and have over 600 posts. It's not like I just created an account to skirt the system. The reality of my uproar is that I posted something that I found to be of interest to others, and it got locked. I have started many a thread in the same manner and had no problem. I understand that the vendor has been contacted and needs to become an authorized vendor, but that still doesn't make sense. I am not the vendor or even considering the product to be honest, I just thought I'd share. And if you read on the thread, it wasn't getting good reviews. How is a product going to get anywhere if they can't get feedback on it? And as MLP said links to non-vendors are permitted, just not allowed by the vendor or anyone affiliated with the vendor. Ok so by all logical thought, if I found this particular product and linked to it, it should be fine....so then what's the problem? It got shut down because the vendor is in need of paying the fee? With all of your answers, it still doesn't make sense as to why "MY" thread got shut down. What the vendor did, if they tried to skirt the system is not right and I agree, but it shouldn't play into shutting down a long time members post on the forums.

 

Oh and as for the comment about me taking this to heart more than the owner of the company. It has absolutely nothing to do with the company in question, it has to do with the basic idea of a forum being a place to share and talk about problems, products, ideas, etc. Well if you post something that is of interest it shouldn't get locked down, or else the forum fails to be what it was created to be. Ya feel me.

 

Some eerily similar things happened to DoS (very similar to what is happening to **** Engineering), but this was back in 2007:

1) I put a thread on NAM asking for trusted testers for a new product (our R53 W2A Intercooler) without being a paying vendor. This thread was promptly taken down and I was reminded that I was not paying vendor fees to NAM.

2) About a month later, someone else found my products online and posted-up pics of my IC on NAM. The links and images were promptly taken down. (This was back in 2007, so it's not a new IB/NAM policy by any means.)

I was angry at first about my second "infraction" because I thought that it was awesome that someone found my products online. After it was taken down, I thought that it was unfair that someone I didn't even know found my stuff online, posted it to the forums, & it wasn't allowed to remain. I was told that this post could be construed as shilling (even though I had nothing to do with it). I was also reminded (again) that paying vendors help to keep NAM alive.

When I actually took the plunge and became a vendor, I realized that vendor fees are NOT cheap. DoS is by no means a huge company, but I pay nearly $500 quarterly to IB for the opportunity to advertise on NAM. (However, it's been a pretty good ROI, so I'm not complaining anymore.)

Even though they are a (direct) competitor, I sympathize with the situation that **** Engineering is in. It really sucks to get burned on the forums.

 

Thanks for chiming in Clint, and as a supporter of yours I appreciate the time and effort you put into your products and I LOVE my intake. My main thing in all of this is, that obviously I have been a member for a long time...since I've owned my R56. I'm not posting up a link and pics of a product with only 2 posts to my name, and if you search under my name you will find that I have been around. That is what irritates me. I found a product and thought it should have a chance to get seen and what not. I understand the need for paying vendors and I support or have supported a good majority of them. I feel that when looking for a product for my car, I will give an authorized vendor an opportunity to wow me with a product before going somewhere else. But that doesn't mean there isn't more out there, and if we can't show what we find then that kind of defeats the purpose of a forum. We might as well have a list of vendors and that's it. Also, Alliance members are a way for the forum to get funds for keeping the forum alive. If you lock down threads because of some unseen violation then the chance of getting that person to be an Alliance member slips away. Just my thoughts. Thanks again for chiming in.

 

I actually consider it a negative if a vendor is "authorized" by NAM. I'm surely in a very small minority with that position.

 

Being involved in a thread, or even receiving an infraction (for any reason, aside from being a spammer, or receiving an infraction that would put you over the limit of points and getting you banned) has nothing to do with Alliance membership. Just FYI.

 

I understand that, I was just saying that there are things that would cause people to not want to be an Alliance member.

 

I would imagine that someone that violates a guideline and refuses to be responsible for their own actions (amazingly, there are plenty of folks who are like "Oops, my bad, won't happen again" when they receive an infraction) is not someone is going to be likely to contribute financially to the community anyway. Those who understand the guidelines and can take responsiblity if they do something that's in violation are not really the problem.

Anyway, I think we're arguing in circles here. I do know that we have had situations here where a vendor has just refused to take "no" for an answer, and continues to try and post advertisements, and in the end any links to that vendor (legit or otherwise) have been removed for the sake of not having to comb through every single post. That may be the case here, I'm not really sure...those edicts tend to come straight from IB. Unfortunately not every vendor is willing to get on board and follow the guidelines, so there has to be some way to protect the paying vendors' privileges.

An unfortunately, in this case, I think you're also shooting the messenger. The moderation staff does what they do, for no pay and no benefit, for the sake of the community. IB makes the money, not us.

 

Well, I guess all I will say is that if you lock down somebody's thread, and don't want them to do what I have done, send them a PM to inform them more directly as to why it was shut down not just this:

NO OTHER SITES
Advertising of products or solicitation of traffic for other websites is forbidden without prior express written permission from North American Motoring staff.

Because reading that makes me feel as though I can't link to any other sites that aren't approved vendors. Does that make sense? If that is acceptable, then you can lock this thread down!........Just make sure you PM me as to why you are locking it down alright!!

 

I've been a member of this forum for a number of years and until just recently, I haven't paid much attention to all the "rules", regulations, banning etc etc. However, I'm finding that this forum is really not for the "members" but a profit center for whoever owns it. Sweet deal for him/her, gets a large number of owners in a niche automotive market who want to simply share information, charges fees to anyone who wants to advertise, gets a group of "moderators" to monitor the site for free, and bans/censors content to his/her liking. Kind of sounds like "Big Government" to me and I'd love to see how he/her came up with a convenient list of rules/regulations to assure no competition sneaking in.. Don't like the way this person conducts business

 

The rules that are currently in place are the same rules that were in place long before IB bought this site. They haven't changed one bit. So from single-person ownership to large corporation ownership, the guidelines have remained the same.

 

What's that have to do with whether they're right or wrong? Just because the rules have been around for a long time has nothing to do with whether they're just or not. This forum is for the members, and should not be a profit center run with full censorship for those not "paying up". You've taken advantage of the members interest in a product to wage a nice little "deal" for the owner. Now you're trying to tell me by censoring a useful product just because they don't "pay up" is good for the "Membership"?

 

There is a HUGE area of grey here. I don't know this companies history, so won't comment on it. But I have had other companies that make competing product here post about stuff "just helping those with questions" and it steamed me royally. They had links to thier website in thier sig, and asked anyone with questions to call them for information. And weren't vendors. This to me was obviously over the line.

I too post products that I find that I think are usefull (I wasn't always a vendor) from companies that make stuff that aren't vendors here. That's normal forum behaviour.

But what about that space between these two examples? It's very context sensitive, and history about the particular product in question is very important. But for sure, it's a case by case call.

And just so that the masses know, sometimes I've been contacted by mods to get my opinion if someone is shilling or not. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but just so you all know, there are times when the mods ask for guidance from those that have been around for a while so that they can gain some perspective.

So, often there is more than meets the eye to what goes on.

Matt

 

If you are not familiar with the internet and how much things cost, I could see how you may think it's all black and white, free speech, and right vs. wrong.

However, a site this size is expensive, we are talking into the tens of thousands of dollars on a monthly basis. The bandwidth that it requires in order to hold all the posts, member info, photos, etc, etc, etc, is unbelievable and costs a fortune. That doesn't even begin to touch the cost of the software it runs, and the other assorted overhead that is required.

That cost, in order to not require members to pay up for the privilege of using the site, is covered by vendor fees. Without vendors a site this size is impossible to maintain. In turn, those vendors that do choose to support this site deserve to have that privilege protected. It is really that simple.

It's very easy to judge if you don't know the ins and outs. Hopefully this helps things make more sense.

 

I guess all the other forums I belong to, ranging from a large international tool forum, cycling forumns, motorcycle forums, weight lifting forum and a runners forum are all doing it the wrong way!
Each and every one of those forums allow "threads" about competing products. The tool forums even have specific areas concerning other tools and products that compete directly with their own products.
I am very familar with the costs and administration of web sites. All I can tell you is that this member thinks the policy stinks and when you get enough of us thinking this way it sure takes away from the real reason for a forum, to share information about Mini Coopers. Now that I know it's really a profit center for the owners and advertisers, I'll take what I learn here with a grain of salt.

 

Threads about non-vendors and their products are more than welcome, and for you to say they are not is ignoring the hundreds that already exist. However, there are a handful of non-vendors that at one point or another abused this privilege by paying, offering free product to, or otherwise coercing members to shill on their behalf, or by creating multiple accounts specifically to dodge the rules. Those non-vendors are specifically not permitted, we know who they are and their posts or posts that pertain to them are moderated accordingly.

Anyone who plays by the rules is more than welcome. Those that break them are not. Again, quite simple.

 

As another vendor giving input as well as long time NAMer, I think the NAM Moderation staff has been fair. Yes there are times when some responses might seem heavy handed, but that's for the team to decide as a whole. Consider yourself lucky for having only had a thread locked.

On one well known detailing forum, I was banned along with all of my customers about 10 of them who loved my Black Wow product and would speak in favor of it whenever a hater would post something negative about it. These were not shillers, they just loved my product yet one heavy handed moderator thought that I MUST have put all these fans up to it, that it wasn't possible they could say nice things without being paid to.

Two years later, I talked to the site owner, and got myself unbanned, but the rest of my customers remained permanently banned.

Now tell me, is that the way to run a forum? No. Is NAM anywhere as bad as that? No.

Just my 2 cents.

Richard

 

Just for clarification and example, years ago another NAMmer posted about the Intravee II, a very cool (and now orphaned ) product that I ended up buying. I'm pretty sure they didn't advertize here. Is this type of posting still allowed? I really enjoy that product, and think that NAM is valuable in that it is a source of information for things we wouldn't otherwise know about. Of course, I patronize NAM vendors for other items, and let them know I found them on NAM.