that basically sums up what I have been trying to say for the past several months.

 

It's not necessarily a good thing that so many people have something to say about how the site is being run .

 

None of my comments were directed towards you Indigo, FWIW I think you've done and continue to do a great job at moderating .

 

very well put Gnat!!!!

I would also like to see this style of moderation change. no one likes to be edited. I made it bold to bring it out in the forefront. It is not just one moderator's style, but it is a style that is due for an overhaul, IMHO. I obviously don't fit the mold of existing moderators, but hopefully I can invoke a change.

 

I appreciate that, but my comments here are not just as a moderator, it is as a member that is equally frustrated over the years.

 

It's better than nothing being said.

Mark

 

+1

 

yep....add to that what Nate/gnatster said about honing in on the little things and not doing the important things (spelling/punctuation vs. mediating discussions)

 

I am seriously liking this thread for some reason. It shows people care.

 

"About what, I have no idea"
-Rodney Dangerfield

 

[quote=gnatster;1810013] I think many of you will find you are posting dribble.
/quote]
As Maxwell Smart would say, "And proud of it!" How many posts does that make?

Seriously, there may be some soul searching here, but toughen up. This is a great forum. The over moderation is one of the reasons it is a great forum in my opinion. I play a lot of soccer and the persons I most admire and most don't want to be are the moderators, er, referees.

I'm afraid you can't expect much adulation but in fact you make it good. Thanks and, by the way, he pushed me first. Oh, and according to my GPS on my last trip across Nevada my maximum speed was 267 mph! My kid tried to blackmail me but I was resonably confident my spouse would recognize it was a rock and roll, hoochie coo with the satelites!

 

NAM is great! I've only been a member for a short while. So far, I think this is site is a great resource. I already have 4 people on my buddy list here who share similar views as myself.

Prior to joining NAM I only belonged to a couple tech related web forums, but from those, I learned quite a bit about the different types of people that post.

It's in my nature to help others. So, I tend to respond to posts where I think I have something to contribute or if I have a strong enough opinion on the topic.

Not having a long history here, I tend to lurk more then respond. But, the more time I spend here, the more and more I consider partaking in some of the events. I definitely have a mental list of some of the folks I'd like to meet in person.

Everything here is new to me, so I am still in a state of awe as to everything NAM has to offer and have yet to only scratch the surface.

I've been primarily focused on an issue the '07 MCS's have, but as a new NAM friend pointed out to me, it's healthy for my mind and newly forming NAM reputation to break out and join in on some of the other discussions. So, I am making a conscious effort to do that moving forward.

I like NAM and have no suggestions for changes. Moderators and vendors will come and go as their schedules and passions permit. I really like the fact that the community is open enough to even discuss this topic.

That's a good thing and a major reason why NAM is so popular.

OK, too much Kool-Aid for me, time for bed.

 

you are entitled to your opinion but I can assure you, over moderation is not a positive attribute of any forum. the goal of a moderator is to be as unobtrusive as possible while preserving the goals of site mgmt. over moderation generally causes more issues than it solves. but, don't listen to me...nobody else does either

 

I bet you didn't want to invade Poland, either!

 

I would like to know why what goes on on other sites has something to do with NAM?

Mark

 

!ding ding ding! I think this attitude is EXACTLY what is wrong with the current moderation team on NAM. You don't live in a vacuum. Many of us have seen what works elsewhere. Forgive us for thinking there's a better way.

 

The issues and problems the moderators at NAM confront are not unique to NAM. I believe it is useful to see the approaches other online forums have taken with respect to moderating content / posters and learn from their experiences.

From my experience with TWoP, a VERY large community of TV addicts with discussion spanning ANYTHING that has been on TV, the strict moderation they impose works. Threads are on-topic, people post a wide variety of opinions but know that disrespecting other people is not tolerated. And there they /do/ clean up offending posts. The mods have often been called draconian, but in my opinion the community is still vibrant and flourishing and I think it is because of, not in spite of, the heavy moderation.

 

Better is good. Explain away, point of the thread and my post.

Mark

 

Gee you didn't try very hard to cover that one up did you? See, that's just it... what you perceive as a "tide" may only be a ripple. Perhaps in your world of MINI-related friends, it's a tidal wave... but relative to the entire MINI community... I honestly don't believe that people are looking to "loosen up" and allow more room for insults, off-color jokes and generally disrespectful behavior here that what we have allowed before, and that is what some proponents are pushing for.Neither do I. I try to stay out of vendor matters as much as possible... and for what it's worth, I can understand why you feel that PU is not an ideal vendor for NAM (my opinion only, not necessarily NAMs)NAM is part of my daily routine - bringing up the "better things to do" issue is a slippery slope. Don't you have better things to do than spend your time online, or mod your MINI?

I don't understand the fish comment though - the only real "effect" of merging two sequential posts is that the post count drops by 1. Do I really care about people's post count? Nope. Clover's got that all sewn up anyway. Again, how does merging two posts without changing the content have any effect on the "style"?Well, you already said the thread titles are OK, so other than merging posts, what other "stuff" are you talking about?

Besides, I already conceded much earlier today in this thread that I would try to scale back on the post merging and save it for the more egregious circumstances. (EDIT: and to prove it... here I am posting my very own back-to-back posts)

 

In the world, yes. But this isn't the world. This is a forum that has the ability to set boundaries and enforce them. Whether people choose to stay within those boundaries or not is up to them.

The real question is where the boundaries should be... but you're kidding yourself if you think that the boundaries are going to disappear completely. NAM has built a solid reputation as a place where people can expect to be able to engage in polite conversation, and I seriously doubt that Mark Ferguson wants to change that, nor do I think the majority (silent or otherwise) wants to change it either, even though a few people may hope for it.

There are plenty of other places on the Net where people can go and be as much of a rowdy jerk as they want to be.Over moderated is a matter of opinion... but we are open to discussing where and when, hence the entire reason for this thread. Some changes will most likely occur, but nobody should expect everything to change, because with all of the varied opinions by members on how the site should be run, it's impossible to please everyone. Some people are still not going to like the end result, but hopefully we can still "fix" the more obvious stuff.

As for favoritism and selective enforcement, you'll have to be more specific. I've encouraged all of the moderators (in the moderators' forum) to speak up if they feel something is out of whack, and also to discuss concerns about other moderators (myself included) if a member brings it to their attention. It is my hope that we can come closer to reducing favoritism, cliques and biased judgement calls to a minimum by discussing them more frequently as a moderation team.OK, how can someone be labelled as a rat when post reports are confidential? Seriously... in order to be "labelled" as such by the person being reported, they'd have to know that you reported them!

Also, I've tried to make it clear that reporting posts isn't only for dealing with "bad behavior", it's also a great tool for getting assistance in other ways, like a request to move a thread, or correct a typo in a thread title.

Besides, a post report in no way reflects on the poster being reported. All it's saying to the moderators is "please come look at this". You love to talk about all the "time" I spend on merging threads, but you fail to recognize that in order to deal with a problem thread, I (or any other moderator for that matter) need to know about it first. And no, I'm sorry, I'm not even going to try to read every thread on NAM. When I'm browsing, I read the threads that interest me, the same as you do.And why do you suppose that is? Why does nothing happen? Because people don't report the thread, that's why. On one hand you criticize the feature for "rats" but on the other hand you complain that nothing happens? Make up your mind - the members are just as important a part of the moderation process as the moderators themselves.Yep, because doing that only escalates the situation further. And people don't come on NAM to read a shouting match. They come on NAM to discuss MINIs (Off Topic forums notwithstanding).Nope, you were issued an infraction, not a strike. There's a huge difference.No, it wasn't... and you admit that now, so why make a big deal out of the infraction that you clearly deserved?Perhaps so, but the guidelines were here on NAM before you were. It's your choice whether you choose to abide by them or not... just like the laws in any city, state or country... you can choose to abide or choose to ignore... but don't be surprised when you get a reaction for ignoring them!Of course you think that, or you wouldn't have said it. Nobody said you had to respect the person. You probably don't respect me, that I can accept. The difference is, what actions are you going to decide to take? There's a difference between respecting someone and being respectful to them. If they aren't respectful to you... you have another 2 other recourses, other than retaliating. Either you report it and let the moderation team handle them, or ignore it and walk away. Retaliation achieves nothing other than momentary satisfaction on your part, an escalation of the entire problem, and unwanted attention on you... and for that, you'd have nobody to blame but yourself.Of course it's "possible" to get back on NAM after the fact. It has happened, absolutely... sometimes they're later found, but I'm sure it's also happened that they haven't.

However, being banned also means you lose your ability to retain the same "identity" on NAM. If you manage to get back on, you have to start a new one... and in terms of community, that can be quite frustrating.

Additionally, if someone gets banned and comes back on, they are faced with a fresh choice: Play nice... or ultimately get banned yet again. And if some of the formerly banned users choose the former, then the community wins.NAM is for every age and every demographic. That's how it was envisioned, and that's how it has been executed. It's intended to be a welcoming place for everyone in general to come and participate. Nobody's making you come here, yet you choose to come anyway. Why is that? It's not so bad here, is it? Clearly it isn't so bad that you hate being here, or you wouldn't be.

Just as you wish there were more "lax" rules here, do you honestly, really think that a majority of MINI owners want a place where shouting matches and degrading insults are the acceptable practice? I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about everyone else. Would you put money down that a poll of every active member (those who have signed on in the last 2 months, for example) would vote for no "respect" enforcement over the current system?Yes, they choose all of that... and likewise, they also choose whether or not to abide by the guidelines they agreed to when they signed up on the site.

If you owned NAM, you'd make the rules. Sorry to say, you don't. Again, strikes are not as much an everyday occurrence as you think they are. Perhaps you "meant" infractions, OK... but societal observation demonstrates that when behavior goes completely unchecked, chaos reigns. Witness widespread looting in cities when the police force is disabled, and you see what I mean.

The real question is finding the right balance of enforcement, not removing enforcement altogether... and that's what these discussions are supposed to uncover.

 

/\ overuse of multi-quote! seriously man...page breaks, PAGE BREAKS!

 

The real question is what constitutes "over moderation" and what constitutes "part of preserving site mgmt goals". Certainly, while I have already conceded (several times now) that merging of back-to-back posts is probably too much, I disagree with the assertion that we should not be enforcing the "respect" guideline. That most definitely is part of the site management goals. Hopefully this thread helps to better define what is what.Was that post made before or after I turned mine into two separate posts?

 

does it matter? I'm not even going to bother to read it....that's a lot of words at 2am. this point/counterpoint is umm, a bit much. just write what you have to say, don't break up a post and analyze every issue

 

Yeah, I find that hard to read ...much like multiple posts, etc.

see, we all have different styles, not every style works for every person, we all are different, just like our MINIs. (mine is the coolest BTW, bwahahahahahaha!!!!)

 

if it was, you wouldn't have almost sold it to me so many years back