Problems in the "MINI" Matrix
let's follow along please:
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 15,966
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That's fine, but if a vendor lies to me, I plan to let the NAM community know about. I won't post his PM, phone call, or whatever other medium, but I will convey what was said. If that isn't allowed here, I think that's a major problem. Unless we are just supposed to pretend that all things MINI are just wonderful.
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
I don't see the problem about "piling" on. If you got what you want out of the thread, then don't go back to it. As for PM's, not allowing posting of the same just gives vendors and others an opportunity to lie without being called on it (something about 150 satisfied NAM members comes to mind). So, when someone posts an issue here, in PM the vendor can say any bs they like to appease that particular person, but the rest of us NAMmers are left ignorant. Sounds like a great thing for the vendors and a lousy thing for the NAM community. So, I am left with the feeling that being a NAM vendor doesn't correlate to be a trustable vendor.
As for vendors I've told many people that I'm a firm believer in darwinism when it comes to business. If a vendor survives and prospers it is because they are reacting well to the influences of the marketplace. If they don't they die off...because they couldn't effectively deal with the pressures of producing, selling, supporting, and managing a business that focuses on this type of marketplace. Vendors make their own choices on how they want to be perceived in the marketplace...NAM is that vehicle....just like a magazine would be a great place for Netflix to advertise and promote their service. On NAM, it is up to the membership and visitors of the site to determine if they have a product or service that they are interested in and want to business with that vendor. If they don't, and the vendor doesn't adjust his/her strategy, the marketplace will force the vendor to abandon the site because the vendor can't afford to stay here. If that happens, and it has happened a bunch of times...over 60 have come and gone since NAM was launched in 2002...I'm totally fine with that. Additionally, for those that stay on the site, the feedback helps them improve their products/services over time...benefiting us all.
Mark
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
That's fine, but if a vendor lies to me, I plan to let the NAM community know about. I won't post his PM, phone call, or whatever other medium, but I will convey what was said. If that isn't allowed here, I think that's a major problem. Unless we are just supposed to pretend that all things MINI are just wonderful.
1) You are really considering buying one of his/her products/services (aka your intentions are good)
2) You have taken pains to try to resolve this directly with the vendor prior to posting it on the site (aka you've been left no other course of action)
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
These are all cues for the vendor. What they do with them speaks to my theory of Darwinism in business. If the community doesn't like what they say then let them know...they will either step up or off.
Over time I've seen violations of all the above caveats:
- people slamming a vendor just because they don't like him/her or there products and they don't (or never had any intention of buying the product/service)
- people don't try to resolve an issue themselves. They want someone else to go to bat for them. When it gets onto the site they look for "NAM" to straighten it out when, at the start, a five minute phone call would have likely sorted out the misunderstanding.
- slamming veiled as constructive criticsm ("Oh...I'm just trying to help") when its obvious that their posts, over time, demonstrate that they just find entertainment value in distorting facts, using them for their own purposes, tearing down other people, etc.
If we really want the aftermarket to mature we should all be making best efforts to make it improve. Taking the 2 minute approach to getting on your soapbox with a keyboard will do anything but make this happen.
Mark
That's fine, but if a vendor lies to me, I plan to let the NAM community know about. I won't post his PM, phone call, or whatever other medium, but I will convey what was said. If that isn't allowed here, I think that's a major problem. Unless we are just supposed to pretend that all things MINI are just wonderful.
)
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 15,966
Likes: 1
I don't see a problem with posting your interpretation of what was said relative to a vendor...with the following caveats:
1) You are really considering buying one of his/her products/services (aka your intentions are good)
2) You have taken pains to try to resolve this directly with the vendor prior to posting it on the site (aka you've been left no other course of action)
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
These are all cues for the vendor. What they do with them speaks to my theory of Darwinism in business. If the community doesn't like what they say then let them know...they will either step up or off.
Over time I've seen violations of all the above caveats:
- people slamming a vendor just because they don't like him/her or there products and they don't (or never had any intention of buying the product/service)
- people don't try to resolve an issue themselves. They want someone else to go to bat for them. When it gets onto the site they look for "NAM" to straighten it out when, at the start, a five minute phone call would have likely sorted out the misunderstanding.
- slamming veiled as constructive criticsm ("Oh...I'm just trying to help") when its obvious that their posts, over time, demonstrate that they just find entertainment value in distorting facts, using them for their own purposes, tearing down other people, etc.
If we really want the aftermarket to mature we should all be making best efforts to make it improve. Taking the 2 minute approach to getting on your soapbox with a keyboard will do anything but make this happen.
Mark
1) You are really considering buying one of his/her products/services (aka your intentions are good)
2) You have taken pains to try to resolve this directly with the vendor prior to posting it on the site (aka you've been left no other course of action)
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
These are all cues for the vendor. What they do with them speaks to my theory of Darwinism in business. If the community doesn't like what they say then let them know...they will either step up or off.
Over time I've seen violations of all the above caveats:
- people slamming a vendor just because they don't like him/her or there products and they don't (or never had any intention of buying the product/service)
- people don't try to resolve an issue themselves. They want someone else to go to bat for them. When it gets onto the site they look for "NAM" to straighten it out when, at the start, a five minute phone call would have likely sorted out the misunderstanding.
- slamming veiled as constructive criticsm ("Oh...I'm just trying to help") when its obvious that their posts, over time, demonstrate that they just find entertainment value in distorting facts, using them for their own purposes, tearing down other people, etc.
If we really want the aftermarket to mature we should all be making best efforts to make it improve. Taking the 2 minute approach to getting on your soapbox with a keyboard will do anything but make this happen.
Mark
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
So, this seems to say that if I read a thread dealing with an experience with a vendor, I am not permitted to present my opinions as to what was said unless I am, or intend to be a customer of that vendor. If I am intepreting the caveat correctly, I don't see how that serves anyone but a vendor which another NAMmer is having an issue with. For example, a while back, a poster complained that a mod part he ordered from a vendor would not actually fit on his car (I actually had a similar situation with another vendor, albeit a minor issue). I have no intention of ordering from that vendor because I don't plan to do that particular mod. Nonetheless, I expressed my opinion that if a vendor is holding a product out for use on a particular vehicle, it should state the item will require other modifications to the vehicle in order to fit. As I read the caveats, I should not express such an, or any, opinion.
In the case you provided above I would fully agree with you in that the vendor should hear the feedback you provided even if you have no intention of being one of their customers...its constructive feedback. In this case your intentions are good...you want the vendor to improve and provide a better customer experience for fellow MINI owners. In looking back at my caveats I guess the best way to look at them would be to see that one or more applies. As is often the case there will always be an exception to the rule so you have to interpret each case on its own merit. The three I listed were merely meant to address the majority of issues I see happening on a daily basis.
mark
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
Interesting discussion.
Having been previously called a "fanboi" (choose your spelling) by another poster because I had the audacity to defend a product and vendor they were defaming... I'll chime in. I believe "vendetta-boi" behavior is at least as objectionable as true fanboi behavior, whatever that may be.
I absolutely believe that the raison d'etre for this forum is sharing of information - some of it good, some of it bad. I've learned TONS in the year I've spent here - good and bad - that have helped me make, overall, good decisions about how to spend my money. I'm glad that those who have had negative experiences, with both products and vendors, share those with the community. I factor those into my purchasing decisions.
That said, there are a number of posters who, perhaps due to their own personal negative experiences with a vendor, or perhaps due to some other motive, seem compelled to join in any discussion about the vendor's products - whether they have any information about the specific product or not - and do their best to shred the reputation of the vendor based on their own negative experience. While that gets REALLY tiresome the 10th time you've read it, I suppose that's defensible in the interest of ensuring that their opinion is heard, just as the positive opinions should be. It's the same as your right to picket in front of the Wal-Mart or wherever.
What is NOT defensible, in my opinion, is extending their remarks to question the rationale, motive, or intelligence of those who have had positive experiences and who are supporters of the particular product or vendor under discussion. I've personally been at the receiving end of folks implying that I'm either in the pocket of the vendor, or just deluding myself because I'm not willing to admit that I bought a product that's no good (even though my personal experience has been VERY good)... and that's just not nice, friendly behavior - no matter how polite the words you choose to use. And should be moderated in some manner. It's the equivalent of yelling "you're stupid to shop there" at everyone walking into the Wal-Mart.... which is not permitted in most physical jurisdictions.
Having been previously called a "fanboi" (choose your spelling) by another poster because I had the audacity to defend a product and vendor they were defaming... I'll chime in. I believe "vendetta-boi" behavior is at least as objectionable as true fanboi behavior, whatever that may be.
I absolutely believe that the raison d'etre for this forum is sharing of information - some of it good, some of it bad. I've learned TONS in the year I've spent here - good and bad - that have helped me make, overall, good decisions about how to spend my money. I'm glad that those who have had negative experiences, with both products and vendors, share those with the community. I factor those into my purchasing decisions.
That said, there are a number of posters who, perhaps due to their own personal negative experiences with a vendor, or perhaps due to some other motive, seem compelled to join in any discussion about the vendor's products - whether they have any information about the specific product or not - and do their best to shred the reputation of the vendor based on their own negative experience. While that gets REALLY tiresome the 10th time you've read it, I suppose that's defensible in the interest of ensuring that their opinion is heard, just as the positive opinions should be. It's the same as your right to picket in front of the Wal-Mart or wherever.
What is NOT defensible, in my opinion, is extending their remarks to question the rationale, motive, or intelligence of those who have had positive experiences and who are supporters of the particular product or vendor under discussion. I've personally been at the receiving end of folks implying that I'm either in the pocket of the vendor, or just deluding myself because I'm not willing to admit that I bought a product that's no good (even though my personal experience has been VERY good)... and that's just not nice, friendly behavior - no matter how polite the words you choose to use. And should be moderated in some manner. It's the equivalent of yelling "you're stupid to shop there" at everyone walking into the Wal-Mart.... which is not permitted in most physical jurisdictions.
Look for the "Lovers and Haters" thread here in Site Feedback in the next couple of minutes.
Mark
. Nonetheless, I expressed my opinion that if a vendor is holding a product out for use on a particular vehicle, it should state the item will require other modifications to the vehicle in order to fit. As I read the caveats, I should not express such an, or any, opinion.
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
While you may not intend to help assist that vendor the action of stating your opinion that a vendor should state that the mod will require a mod is in the best interest of the vendor.
It is a judgement call and this is where the perceived lack of moderators comes into play. If you had written the post in such a manner that a reasonable person could see the constructive criticism then no harm, no foul. However; if the post was full of snide remarks and underhanded tricks to get the same point across then a mod should step in via a PM and point out where the line was crossed. Since NAM seems to have mods that want to be everyones buddy and don't stick their necks out we end up the animosity between members.
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
Personally I really don't want the moderators having to look for and evaluate the "intent" of each post on the site. What I do want is that they look for obvious site guideline violations. Going beyond that forces us all onto a slippery slope...perceived censorship because we didn't "get" what they really meant.
there's black and white and a lot of grey in between when it comes to that. a good mod staff knows how/when/why to operate in the grey. It's necessary to keep things on an even keel among the members in my experience as a mod on another large forum.
Banned
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,054
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From: As far away from Florida as I can get.
I don't see a problem with posting your interpretation of what was said relative to a vendor...with the following caveats:
1) You are really considering buying one of his/her products/services (aka your intentions are good)
2) You have taken pains to try to resolve this directly with the vendor prior to posting it on the site (aka you've been left no other course of action)
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
Mark
1) You are really considering buying one of his/her products/services (aka your intentions are good)
2) You have taken pains to try to resolve this directly with the vendor prior to posting it on the site (aka you've been left no other course of action)
3) By posting you're intent is to help the vendor see that change (or coming clean) is in his/her best interest (aka constructive criticism)
Mark
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Of course they would....and probably would if they didn't feel like they would get jumped on if they were happy with their purchase decision...or unhappy with it.
Mark
Mark
Also...it's important to rotate moderators perdiodically. Giving one a break is a good thing....I've done it of my own accord though we also do it once in awhile to mix things up. It helps to see things from the member's side again...gives you a fresh perspective. Being a moderator is a thankless job. A good mod is part therapist, part cop, part parent, and part friend. Finding someone with those qualities that knows how to balance each is the trick.
one thing I find very interesting about NAM...I'm on a few forums and this is the only one where I don't feel welcome 100% of the time. I hold back posting here much of the time because of this. I have a rep on other boards as being helpful and knowledgeable and honest and I find myself being attacked here as if I was none of those things. Maybe it's my own fault....maybe not.
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
yes, in the mod forum we have a 'primer' for the basics of how to do things. we select mods by those who've shown they have a level head, even keel and have earned respect among the membership. We'll have a thread about them in the mod forum and discuss and also monitor and research their posts to look for a general trend. If that person is willing, we make them a junior mod responsible for one section or forum to start. they're also encouraged to ask lots of questions of other mods....we share IM, cell #'s, etc to facilitate this.
Also...it's important to rotate moderators perdiodically. Giving one a break is a good thing....I've done it of my own accord though we also do it once in awhile to mix things up. It helps to see things from the member's side again...gives you a fresh perspective. Being a moderator is a thankless job. A good mod is part therapist, part cop, part parent, and part friend. Finding someone with those qualities that knows how to balance each is the trick.
Thread Starter
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
one thing I find very interesting about NAM...I'm on a few forums and this is the only one where I don't feel welcome 100% of the time. I hold back posting here much of the time because of this. I have a rep on other boards as being helpful and knowledgeable and honest and I find myself being attacked here as if I was none of those things. Maybe it's my own fault....maybe not.
Mark
I'm not talking about the recent vendor thing Mark. There is only one vendor I've dealt with elsewhere that I take issue with (Alta/Perrin). My issues here have been speaking openly about my experiences with MINI vendors I encountered through NAM (I've been on this board for a few years now, only recently with my own screen name instead of sharing my wife's - she doesn't post here anymore due to some of the same issues).
I don't feel it's ok to do so here and thus I don't contribute to this site as much as others (MINI and non-MINI both).
I don't feel it's ok to do so here and thus I don't contribute to this site as much as others (MINI and non-MINI both).
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
I guess I would have to ask about the specific circumstances surrounding the issues you've experienced on the site. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss them in the public forums.
Mark
Mark
just a general tension on this site....perhaps it's more the demographic of the MINI owner vs. other boards. My thread in DCMM about issues with my dealer is a good example. I was attacked for many things....as if I was the issue and not the dealer. The dealer admitted it failed me multiple times, yet a few members turned it around on me (one of them your employee who's deleted his comments).
Last edited by PGT; Aug 24, 2007 at 08:44 AM.
No one has addressed point #2 on the original post, but I'd like to comment on it, and I feel that it really causes a lot of the fanboy/antifanboy feelings that people have here.
First, the obvious part.
The fact that the MINI is brand new, exciting, and people are interested in modding it allowed a lot of entreprenuers to start businesses based around the car (heck, NAM is one of them!)
Add in the fact that a lot of the people modifying their MINIs are 'new' to the idea of modifying cars in general, and you get an opportunity for things that 'sound' like they'd be a great idea getting out into the marketplace - many times, though, these products are only backed with at best a dyno plot (which may or may not be accurate) and at worst quite a lot of 'claims' by the vendor.
If we look at other enthusiast car aftermarkets - which are well established after DECADES, you see that there are several large companies out there that are pretty well accepted as making quality products. We haven't had that luxury with the MINI yet, so we are still working through those growing pains (bad vendors, bad products, etc.) When you add that there isn't a huge number of MINIs racing professionally (which provides great testing and research opportunities) it is going to be difficult to separate the good from the bad.
In the end, the products that work (or have a percieved value to the consumer) will thrive, and the products which don't work will go away.
What would I change for all of this regarding NAM? Well, I'd add a Vendor Review section alongside the product review section, so people who are maybe new can see what experiences other people have had with certain vendors.
Regarding the 'fan-boys'. It is easy to do a search to see what a person typically posts about. I know if I see a poster with only a handful of posts talking about how great some new product is, I assume that they are associated with the manufacturer in some way (official or not) and ignore them. And when I see the same posters supporting one vendor regardless of product/topic/etc, I assume they are also associated with the vendor, and ignore them as well.
First, the obvious part.
The fact that the MINI is brand new, exciting, and people are interested in modding it allowed a lot of entreprenuers to start businesses based around the car (heck, NAM is one of them!)
Add in the fact that a lot of the people modifying their MINIs are 'new' to the idea of modifying cars in general, and you get an opportunity for things that 'sound' like they'd be a great idea getting out into the marketplace - many times, though, these products are only backed with at best a dyno plot (which may or may not be accurate) and at worst quite a lot of 'claims' by the vendor.
If we look at other enthusiast car aftermarkets - which are well established after DECADES, you see that there are several large companies out there that are pretty well accepted as making quality products. We haven't had that luxury with the MINI yet, so we are still working through those growing pains (bad vendors, bad products, etc.) When you add that there isn't a huge number of MINIs racing professionally (which provides great testing and research opportunities) it is going to be difficult to separate the good from the bad.
In the end, the products that work (or have a percieved value to the consumer) will thrive, and the products which don't work will go away.
What would I change for all of this regarding NAM? Well, I'd add a Vendor Review section alongside the product review section, so people who are maybe new can see what experiences other people have had with certain vendors.
Regarding the 'fan-boys'. It is easy to do a search to see what a person typically posts about. I know if I see a poster with only a handful of posts talking about how great some new product is, I assume that they are associated with the manufacturer in some way (official or not) and ignore them. And when I see the same posters supporting one vendor regardless of product/topic/etc, I assume they are also associated with the vendor, and ignore them as well.
The problem is that few people know it's there and and so it's rarely used.