Would you send me a picture of the wheel? With a 5mm spacer, you can use longer bolts. You may also want to check around as I think some people use the stock bolts with the 5mm spacer. Every kit we have installed so far fit the customers wheels with no spacers. I am very busy getting kits out today. The first two 16" kits shipped today, but I will try to find the time to do the PDF.

 

Here is my B3 17" kit:







Details:
Custom ordered plain calipers
Custom ordered black slotted-only rotors
[edit] PF #97 pads

Total System Weight: 49 pounds (rotors, calipers, brackets and hardware)
Each rotor weighs 18.5 pounds
Stock system weight: 42 pounds (rotors, calipers, brackets and hardware)
Each stock rotor is 12 pounds

This equates to 13 pounds of total added rotational mass, though it's not near as obvious to feel as you may initially think. The sheer beef of the rotors is mighty impressive, and heat soaking (fading) this system is just about impossible to do on any track.

The stopping power of this system is totally awesome, and makes the stock brakes with Ferodo 2500's feel like amateur hour! System modulation has greater resolution, and pedal feel is very similar to stock, so there isn't much to "adapt to" in a street situation.

This system is totally professional looking - the B3 BBK's debut here in Detroit was at today's Summer Picnic, and absolutely everyone was awed with them.

All three of my wheels fit with room to spare. Exel Vega 17x7" ET42, Exel TZ-10 17x7" ET42 and Kosei T1-R 17x7.5" ET45, if you want specs. The fat-free caliper leaves lots of flexibility for spoke shape (well, the s-lite "boat anchors" aside, with their very very thick spoke).

Thanks Bob for all your hard work, I can't wait for the rear kit!
Cheers,
Ryan

 

Awesome Ryan, Those are way cool. Whe are you hitting the track again?

I am looking forward to Randy's evaluation of the 16's.

 

Great pics Ryan!

Congrats on owning the first set in black. I really like the look! The only correction is the pads are PFC #97 race pad (Performace Friction). These are the reccomended pad for road racing, but they come in at a fairly low temp and we have found they also work great on the street. Even more agressive road race pads are available. The only word of caution is to remember the car behind you doesn't have these brakes!

I have started on the rears and hope to have this done in the next week or two. I have the first set of black slotted only rear rotors already redrilled to fit the Mini. I just need to work on the bracket and then test them.

The 16" kit is exactly the same except the rotor is smaller diameter to fit inside a 16" wheel and 1mm wider at 31mm (1 1/4") thick. While many will tell you that you don't need a rotor this thick, everyone who has bought the kit so far has raced their Mini to the track. The thicker rotor can manage a greater amount of heat which helps prevent fade and ensure conssistant results everytime you go for the brakes.

Thanks again Ryan for chosing B3
BTW: B3 was a name the orignial tester called them because I didn't have a name for them. He called them "Bad to the Bone Brakes" which he shortend to B3

 

Ryan, thanks for the review and those weight figures. Much appreciated!

RL, given that the 16s are only 1mm thicker, and about 1" smaller in diameter, how much lighter are those rotors compared to the 17s? I would love to know!

Thanks a bunch.

 

I just weighed a rotor for the 16" kit. This rotor has not had the center hole opened or the Mini bolt pattern drilled into it but it weighs 17 pounds. The brakets for this kit (1/4 steel) are about half the size of the 17 inch kit. This would bring overall weight to close to the stock setup. So far everyone with the 17" kit haven't noticed a difference in acceration or handleing and they all track their cars.

 

RLmini,

If Ryan is doing so well with his present setup of stock brakes in the rear and B3 in the front for 17" then what would he gain by adding B3 brakes in the rear? Why not say with his current setup or do you think that the front to rear bias could be improved with B3 brakes on front and rear?

Is there a penalty for this added rotational weight? That's like changing to heavier wheels. Can't be good for autocross when you are doing lots of short distance braking and need quick acceleration. Heat is not usually a factor for brakes in autocross.

On the track I can see how the B3 brakes would be helpful reducing heat and adding to stopping power. Once you get the speed up then not too bad keeping speed with a little more rotational weight. It's just harder/slower from a tight turn to get back up to speed.

Ryan,
What brake fluid are you using? Thanks for the write up.

 

minihune - the added mass of heavier rotors is not equivalent to heavier wheels, and especially heavier tires because the rotors mass is closer to the axis of rotation compared to the other two. This means rotational inertia isn't affected near as much as a heavier tire. When it comes down to lap times, being able to shorten your stopping distances means you're going faster for longer. At the speeds you're travelling on the track, the increase in mass is marginal; you might as well not have had that Pepsi before your session. If we were drag racing, the car would be at a disadvantage off the line.

I also don't auto-x much, and when I do, I'd rather be on a Track or on the Dragon, so the slight increase in rotational inertia is not a big concern for my application. People that focus their efforts more on auto-x may want to consider RLMini's 16" kit.

Also, the brake bias ISN'T CHANGED with the rear kit, as RLMini is using the stock rear calipers. Remember the piston sizes are what determine the brake bias. The primary reason for a rear kit is to regain aesthetic balance.

I'm using Valvoline SynPower, which isn't as good as Castrol SRF, but way cheaper!

 

Everyone who has installed the front brakes immediatly wants somthing for the rear to give the car a more balanced look. The new front brakes seem to make the stock rear brakes look like little toys. I am not expecting any improvement as it is really for looks. If we get any improvement great!

I know that many of you autocrossers like light 16" wheels. Nobody with the 17" kit has noticed any diference in quickness or getting to speed. I have never autocrossed, but forgetting about heat, would there be an advatage to being able to be on the gas a little longer and slow the car quicker? In the past week I have sold 5 kits for the 16" wheels, Someone in this group will shurely be an autocrosser so we should get some feedback. I am an old drag racer and I liked to think things through, but the real test is always on the track.

I am sure that most of us love the feeling of great acceleration, and handeling. Having incredible stopping power can also add to the enjoyment of your car! It can also be a safety issue, as one customer told me that he just barley avoided being in an accident and that with stock brakes he thinks things would have been much worse.

 

Sound like a another pound might be shed after the boring and hole-drilling to get to 16 pounds a rotor, or about 4 over stock. Indeed, for the endurance track events or driving situations that necessitate repetitive hard-braking, adding some rotational mass is going to be an acceptable trade-off.

As Garfield shared before (in another thread), for auto-x, and other short duration events where fade is generally not a serious issue (can be adequately addressed with minor upgrades), going with bigger brakes might not be desirable, and as minihune says above, it can be a detriment due to the added rotational mass.

With my fairly long canyon runs, I'm looking at a larger system, and this one tops my list. I'm also eye-balling the Tar-ox 305mm, but at 2,500 bucks, I see why RL has something special here!

 

All,

Am very interested in any brake improvement that would help MINI stop in 70% of the stock stoping distance. A significant safety improvement by any standard. B-3 brakes sound impressive. Are these claimed improvements believable?
I had thought that the stock MINI ABS system would stop the car in the minimum possible distance by modulating brake power to eliminate wheel skid. I had assumed that the stock brakes were up to the occasional "dynamite" and therefore the limiting factor in stoping distance was tire traction. Maybe I'm wrong in this assumption. I hope that I am because products like B-3 brakes are very appealing.
Any thoughts?

John Petrich in Seattle

 

Miniak, (Brett Paul) feel free to jump in here. Brett showed us that when you get into ABS the distance increased by about ten feet with both the new brakes and the stock brakes, so ABS is not the way to get the shortest stopping distance.

 

TonyB,

Weight of the rotor is of some concern but not a place to be loosing alot of weight by drilling, dimpling, or other methods. Most quality rotors with holes are cast with those holes but drilled rotors are much more prone to micro cracks so it isn't really worth it. Best is a solid rotor made beefy enough to reduce heat build up but also not too heavy with mass. Slotting is an option but isn't a requirement. Sometimes slots are possible on the brake pads.

Ryan,
Thanks for your comments. Matching set for the front and rears- OK, makes sense but some of us would go for the bare essentials on a budget.
Later adding the other missing elements.

As for autocross, guess what stronger brakes might do for us less skilled drivers? It might help us enjoy braking so much that we actually can slow down too much before turns- this is a really bad thing to do since maximizing entering speed into a corner is one those things that is crucial to having a better exiting speed.Decisions, decisions.

 

I read the review and brake test-
60-0 stopping with stock MCS using 16" X-lyte wheels and stock 195/55-16 runflat tires in 105 feet. OK.

Then 60-0 stopping with MCS with B-3 front brakes and aftermarket (Lighter- only 0.5 pounds) ASA 17" rims and Kumho 17" (sticky tires) in 70 feet. Maybe the tires were 215/45-17 which would be wider than the stock 16".

For me the test needed to be made with the same car with and without the brakes or with at least the same set of wheels on those cars since the weight of the wheels and the quality of the tires would affect the stopping distances. The lighter the wheel and the stickier the tire the faster the car will stop even with stock brakes and pads.

Also for these tests were the street pads used or track pads? Hawk SP plus?

When tirerack does their brake tests that have exactly the same test cars that have exactly the same size tires and wheels on with just the tires that are different and they average the data over many stops both on dry and wet surfaces.

 

minihune, for clarification purposes, I was referring to RL's earlier comment that his 16" rotor weight 17 pounds. He explained that the rotor still needed drilling for our bolt pattern and some boring of the center hole. This would obviously shave some more weight from the 17 pound figure. Stock is 12 according to Ryan...

I personally don't want cross-drilled or dimples on my rotor. Randy turned me off that some time ago...

 

OK, normal holes, not "extra" cosmetic holes. That's now clear.

 

tonyb,

what width are you running on your volk ce28's? thanks.

S.

 

The same car/driver was used in the initial test. Brett picked me up at shop and we went to a Motorcycle shop to pick up some Motul brake fluid. While we where gone we found a place to test without getting arrested. It was a very larger parking lot around an industrual building. There was the back of a Home depot on the other side where we found three small pieces of rebar whcih we stuck in the grass as markers. There is one piece at the end of the grass to mark the "hit the brakes point". We did a few passes with stock rotors and pads. We did find the stock brakes improved on the second and third pass indicating that they actuall aren't too bad. All passes where done in the quickest succession possible. After about the third pass the distances really started to increase as the stock brakes began to cook and fade. We left the marker of the best stop up and also marked the ground in case anyone decided to steal our rebar marker.

We then went to the shop and installed the new brakes. About an hour latter we where driving back to the test site. I road along on the first two passes becase I wanted to experience the feel of my hard work first hand. I watched the speedo to make sure we where at 60mph. The first stop with me in it (167lbs) was well short of the best stock stop even though we got into ABS a little. People who have switched to this system report that they like the pedal feel but have to get used to the new feel. I got out and watched the rest of the stops. The stops got progesivley better until they seemed very consistent and we felt we had our best stop marked. We didn't experience any signs of fade like we did with the stock brakes. The rotors turned a nice gold color that you can see in the pictures in my NAM home page.

At our best stop we left the car where it sat and took some pictures. Another club member was there watching and we asked him to park his car at the spot that marked the best stock stopping spot. We then photgraphed both cars only to illistrate the difference visually. Behind the red car (tester) you will see the rebar sticking up which was the slam 'em point. The brake pads used in this test where my standard street pad that I offer Hawk SP Plus. Afew weeks latter we swithced to PFC #97 race pads at Texas World Speedway. The tires where Kumho's 215 40 17 brand new un-cut sticker tires. While it was the same car and driver at all times he did have other tires and wheels on earlier in the moring. I am not sure what they where. Brett is a very experienced driver and race instructor. The silly grins on his face told me we may have some great brakes! he has since run two more full weekends at MotorSports Ranch and Texas World Speedway without servicing or changing anything. He also is highly reccomending the race pad for street use.

While neither of us are experts at testing, the real world result is he is very hard to beat on the track and loves knowing that everytime he goes for the brakes he get the same powerful result. Also please keep in mind that while mark fueguson made me look very profesional and helped me launch this, I really never intended to make a business out of this. I still have a day job that pays very well. This project grew out of some of us complaining about the cost of decent kits and I had experience making kits for my own personal use. If I sell enough of these I will be able to get wheels, tires, exhaust and sway bar without having to suck up to the Bank of Wife. Like Ryan's yoyo fix, mcncheese/Andy HAI, and TonyB's straight through exhaust this is a very home grown project.

 

RLmini,
Thank you for the details. Put those "other" tires from the stock car runs back on the test car and test them out with your B-3 brakes. That would be the number I would compare to 70 feet. Thanks again.

 

I like and appreciate your passion RL!

I was chatting with Peter on MINI2 a couple years ago, now he's M7. And many of us here have seen Dan evolve some of his ideas into a company. It's up to you as to where you want to take it... Enjoy!

Hey, it's looking fairly certain that I will be wanting your 16 inch kit. I'm just in the process of saving and preparing for my wedding reception here in the States, so I really can't make this happen at the moment. Just wanted to let you know that you have one more in the pipeline! Gosh, I also want those Bilsteins PSS9s and some camber plates also...

 

Thanks TonyB,

Congrats on the wedding reception! I look forward to working with you in the future. I am up late tonight doing more research. Bilstein makes Mini shocks? I spent quite a lot of time sorting out the handling of my 289 Cobra and once I finally tried Bilstein all problems where solved! I went through many shocks trying to get each end of the car to work as a team.

 

Yes, Bilstein makes their PSS9 coilovers for us! They can be had for about 1,700 bucks. You can search the Suspension forum to find a couple threads about them...

Chat with you later.