This post is all lies

 

Our experience is contrary to this idea. We've had a ton of 'old beaters' and hand me down cars, and only once have we had to replace an auto trans, in an Isuzu Rodeo. The rest of them never quit, and it was some engine part that trashed the car. Mostly timing belts and valves and stuff like that.

The idea of the auto being a problem and the manual being a better way to go is from an older generation of cars, it seems to me.

Is there any head to head research that someone can put their hand on regarding this? Anecdotal information, no matter how widely believed, is just that... anecdotal.

 

Just ignore this guy, he bitched about his clutch, sold the car and still is on the forum.. If you are SO upset with your mini and sold it, why are u still here? Rhetorical question....

Maybe loading all those damn bikes on your car burnt the clutch! Ha! That's funny to me.

 

From the time I leave the garage its all hills here, no clutch issues and love the ALL4. Thinking about buying another.

 

yes there is, over on motoring alliance mini forum there are a bunch of folk trying a classs action lawsuit against mini over the aisin 6 speed auto due to premature failure (80k-100k miles)

my friend owns a transmission repair shop and aisin 6 speed auto transmissions as used by mini, vw and numerous other brands are a large part of his business

$7000-$9000 for a new trans (depends on the variant) and about $2500-$3000 labor in a mini to install

aisin does not sell repair kits so he has no choice but to replace a shot trans with a new one

scott

 

Not to offend anyone but... show me a product that has never got a bad review and never had a issue, toaster or car and I will show you a liar. Im a mechanic and machines fail, two exact same models will have totally different issues. I love certain products that just as educated or experienced mechanics hate (Ford vs Chevy) (Mercury vs OMC) the list is endless. There is a problem in this country with spreading fear, there is a difference between trying to help others with your personal experience and just hating something because it did not work for you, make sure you know the difference.

 

I am entitled to my opinion, and it is based on anecdotal experience.

I never said I hated MINI, just that I did not like the clutch. It never smelled or gave me any problems (I had issues with a fuel pump and temp sensor). I sold the car for other reasons. I did not end up trading in for an automatic but I considered it for a while, and the numbers did not work out so I ended up getting something else used. I really liked my CM, and I miss it, that's why I still lurk here. Beats tv.

 

Scott, is there something that shows the failure rate of the automatics, vs. the failure rate of the manuals? In the same model of car? There are many, many more automatics purchased. And have there been changes to the Aisin since that generation? What is considered premature in an automatic, vs. a manual? Certainly repair costs of the manual are lower. Where do you knowledgeable guys go to find these things out? Is there a good website for those sorts of comparisons?

 

as i happens, i had dinner with my friend tonight and we talked about the aisin automatic transmission

he is changing 3-5 a month, mostly from minis, vws and toyotas with a few volvos and mazdas thrown in

my friend has disassembled a couple of the failed auto transmissions he replaced

in all of them he found excessive sludge buildup due to not changing the "lifetime" fluid and also found a bushing in the "valve body" that had spun, in turn blocking an oil passage

the first symptom noted by his customers is a harsh shift into 4th gear

the part that goes into the spun bushing controls the 4th gear shift!

eventually, 4th gear fails and that destroys the entire transmission

he says they could be rebuilt, but aisin does not sell repair parts so he cannot repair them ... until parts become available, the only option is a new transmission

this same failure happens in minis, vws, toyotas, and several other brands (noted above) that use an aisin transmission that is of the same family as the mini transmission ... aisin makes several different transmission familys and variants of each of those

he also relayed to me that both toyota and vw now recommend transmission fluid changes in their aisin variants of the mini transmission, he thought at 50k mile intervals ... he recommends 30k miles ... as a side note, he recommends ALL transmissions have fluid changes every 30,000 miles, including manuals, and including those with synthetic oil ... the aisin DOES NOT USE SYNTHETIC TRANSMISSION FLUID! (jws-3309 is a dinosaur oil based transmission fluid)

on one of my test drives, i took an all4 auto to his shop to put it up on his lift to have a look under the car

as soon as he saw the transmission he told me not to buy the automatic, to get the manual instead ... i had already decided to get a manual, the dealer had no manual demo all4s at that time although they later did and i drove the manual befort i ordered my car

so far, i have no problem with my clutch, but if i ever do, a clutch cost a lot less than the $7000-$9000 that the automatic cost and the labor is similar in both, but i will change it myself "for free" lol

i do not expect to have trouble with the clutch, i have driven my personal vehicles over 1 million miles, all but 80,000 with manuals and just last year had to change my first clutch, at 288,000 miles in my 1997 gmc sonoma p/u ... it turned out the clutch was less than 1/2 worn, it would have lasted well over 500,000 miles, but the throwout bearing had completely corroded away ... i put a gmc "clutch kit" in that included all the clutch parts ... cost was under $400, labor was "free" ... i did it myself

the sonoma is a 4x4 and has had 30k mile fluid changes in all of the drivetrain since new, front and rear differentials, trans and the tranfer case

the transfer case is known to fail at 50k-60k miles, mine has 289,000 on it ... i attribute this to the fluid changes, gm does not call for fluid changes of the transfer case

my 92 year old dad bought an all4 automatic ex-demo 2 weeks after i got my all4

it had 2,500 miles on it ... at 3,000 miles, my friend changed the fluid

the fluid looked ok and the filter had no crud in it, we will change it again at 15,000 and see how it looks then

i have since found out that amsoil has a synthetic oil that is equal to jws-3309 trans fluid and may change dad's car to the synthetic now instead of waiting until 15k miles ... he just turned 8k miles

scott

 

Scott, BMW has offered to replace our 2012 CM because of electrical system issues that they have been unable to repair. We ordered the replacement car with an automatic because all the reports of clutch problems scared us. (We had no clutch issues, but we had the current car only a very short time.)

So to hear discussion about problems with the automatic is a bit unnerving. I have been active on this forum for several years and have heard few reports of problems.

I read the posts on Motoring Alliance, and if I am reading them correctly the issues are with gen 1 cars, model year 2006 and prior, more specifically with owners who never changed their fluid. Apparently mini did not call for fluid changes. Sounds to me like recipe for disaster.

Sounds similar to what happened to Mercedes when they came out with the new 7 speed auto in 2004. They initially said the fluid was "lifetime", but a couple of years later quietly started calling for periodic replacement. I have a 2005 slk55 for which there is no recommended change interval, but I change it anyway. Seems crazy not to spend $200-300 to protect a $10,000 transmission.

Also, isn't it true that the Aisin transmissions being installed in CM's are a totally different design versus the ones being discussed on Motoring Alliance?

 

I have a Mini Cooper Hardtop base model non-S with automatic and absolutely love this transmissions performance! This is the first I've read about problems with the Mini Aisin 6spd Auto, albeit at 6 figure mileage levels stated.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Mini with the Aisin 6spd auto, but I personally will be changing its' fluids at 30K mileage intervals. IMHO "lifetime" fluids/oils are nonsense. I changed my factory engine oil at 2,500 and have been changing it every 7,000-7,500 after that using the BMW/Mini recommended Mobile-1 grade.

There's no doubt a Mini Countryman All4 puts more stress the transmission than its' FWD siblings. Only time will tell if the All4 will require something beefier on the auto side of the equation. It appears the manual side has already required a beef-up...

Here's to regular "reasonable" fluid changes and happy motoring for all!

 

there is another bunch with the CVT transmission that is talking about legal action, but i was not refering to them

the CVT also self destructs and cannot be repaired per my friend, but he has only seen a couple of them ... either the volumn of mi nis sold back then was very low, or the volumn of automatics was low back then

there are people on all the forums i follow with late model aisin 6 speed failures in the 80,000-100,000 range, even here on NAM i am a thread on an 80,000 mile failure

as i said, the aisin is a significant source of revenue for my friends transmission shop

my 92 year old dad got the automatic saying "i bet i don't live long enough to drive enough miles to have a problem with the transmission" and by changing his fluid early and often i hope he puts a lot of trouble free miles on his cms all4

scott

 

Scott, I would appreciate if if you could direct me to the threads you are citing where owners of late model automatic Minis (of any body type) are experiencing transmission failures. I have searched all over this forum as well as Motoring Alliance and cannot even find one. Given that we have an automatic CM on order, I would definitely like to understand the nature of the failures and how prevelant the issue is, thanks.

 

Shark, IMO, any mechanical component can and will eventually fail. If there is a defect with the individual unit it will manifest itself early on (as you unfortunately experienced with your current CM) or if there is a lack of maintenance the failure will occur sooner rather than later.

According to what I have read and what I think Scott is also saying is that it is a good idea to change the trans fluid in the trans and not treat it as a lifetime fluid. This is particularly true if you plan on keeping the car past 100 to 120k miles. From what I have read (mostly in Roundel magazine), the lifetime fluids should be replaced in the 30k to 50k mile range for long term and true "lifetime" use of the component.

I have followed 30k fluid changes on all my BMW's and MINI's, driven well over a half million miles with them (closer to 750k but I lost track) and never ever had to replace a major mechanical component such as engine, trans, diff or clutch.

To be perfectly honest even the clutch in my CM is still holding up. I hate that it will smell like it's burning when driven in stop and go on hills, and I don't understand why it is incapable of making the car move without drama on super steep hills in SF. While I complain about this, my CM has had zero repairs and if I lived on flatter terrain, I would think the clutch hubbub is nonsense and give the CM an enthusiastic endorsement.

 

I agree with everything you said, except I really believe there is something amiss with the clutch...just way, way, too many instances of owners reporting the same problems. The gut feeling I get from reading all the reports is that the problem was worst with the 2011's, and less prevelant with the 2012's. This is merely a casual observation, and I have no statistics to back it up. But I can tell you that I have been driving manual shift cars for 40 years, and there is something weird about the CMSA4 clutch...I noticed it from the very first time I test drove one before we placed our order for the current car. We are concerned enough about the issue that we switched to an automatic when we ordered the replacement, so we no longer need to be concerned. Hopefully all is resolved for the 2013 cars.

But I am very concerned about about Scott's report that owners are having trouble with late model automatics. We ordered the automatic based on hearing of few if any instances of problems with it. I want to understand what the issues are and how prevelant they are. That's why I asked Scott if he can please direct me to the threads that he cited regarding the problems.

 

shark715

i am not "following" the threads, just have read them and then i don't see them anymore

i know there is a thread under clubman and another under r56 and another under countryman

same over on the other forums

there is a uk forum that has several threads going too, i think it is called mini club uk

try using google instead of the built in search, the builtin search sucks

you can use a website qualifier on google search "site:www.northamericanmotoring.com" (without the quotes)

most of the info on failures is coming from my friend with the trans shop

scott

 

bmwr606, I have owned an '07 S Hardtop automatic since it was new. While I can't say the car has been trouble free, it now has 117k miles on it with no trans issues whatsoever. My husband ignored the suggested upkeep schedule, and did have the trans fluid completely flushed twice as a preventative measure. My husband's '08 S Clubman automatic has more than 140k miles with the same results.

My husband has been active on this forum for many years, and can't recall even ONE transmission failure on any second generation Mini. Given the hundreds of thousands that have been sold, certainly someone somewhere has had a transmission fail, but we have yet to hear about it.

We are very aware that both the CVT and 6 speed automatics on the first generation cars had issues, but that has absolutely not been the case with second generation cars.

In your effort to show that manuals are better then automatics, you claimed that there are threads all over the Mini forums regarding these problems. But when Shark715 asks you for the details, isn't it odd that you can't provide them???

It's because they don't exist. I'll bet your friend with the transmission shop is also made up. I've seen many of your past posts. It's clear you have a habit of making up facts as you go along to try to support whatever positions you want to take.

You are a complete fake!

 

I'll play along since your facts are based on nothing but your own words.

By your own logic, $7000+ labor is what it costs to fix the automatic tranny, albeit at '100k miles' according to you.

It costs $2000+ labor to fix the manual's clutch, which are going on most people between 10k and 20k miles, according to many many many documented reports on this forum.

See if you can keep up.

$2000 multiplied by every 20k miles to replace your clutch means that at 100k miles you would have spent $10k miles on clutches. That's $3k more than fixing the automatic at the same mileage.

But it makes no difference. This whole discussion is lunacy.

 

SO... a search of the Motoring Alliance forum, using the Google site specific search for 'transmission failure' resulted in twenty five references to automatic transmission failures.. ALL of them in the 1st Gen forum, and many of them for the CVT transmissions. Not one of the four pages that returned (which included a lot of threads where transmissions were mentioned in passing, but without associated failure of an automatic) referred to a 2nd Gen MINI.

Are there failures of Aisin late model transmissions? No doubt. But in massive numbers??

Either a link to a thread on the subject, or an apology, is in order it would seem...

 

AND a Google query using site specific search for MINI2.com, the UK site, yielded **many many** threads on the failure of 1st Gen CVT and Midlands transmissions, and in fifteen pages, not ONE on a 2nd Gen car.

It's actually very reassuring at this point....

 

Just to be thorough, I went through MINI2.com's 2nd Gen subforum one thread at a time... from most recent to the very first one... NOTHING about failure or trouble with the auto tranny.

Then I went through Motoring Alliance's 2nd Gen subforum, which doesn't have a stock issues section, so I went through the Cooper and the Cooper S discussion areas, where problems are posted. From newest to the very first. WOW!!! Not ONE thread about the automatic transmission.

And since we have all been reading NAM's forum devotedly, we can say with confidence that it hasn't been addressed here either, at least in the last year or two....

SOOOOO Scott..... put up or shut up. Gauntlet thrown.

 

************************************************** ************************************'**
edit: i just googled NAM and this thread popped as the first hit, it is about aisin 6-speed auto failures (NOT CVTs) in first gen, THE EXACT SAME F21 TRANSMISSION as in 2nd gen ... these cars just have more miles due to being older ... this is the 2nd gen future
************************************************** ***************************************

just got off the phone with my friend that owns the transmission repair shop ... he ran some reports from his computer for the last 12 months

he is seeing 3-5 minis per month with automatic trans problems and 1-2 manuals

he is also seeing 10+ toyotas and vws a month with the same aisin automatic that mini uses, of course toyota sells alot more cars than mini, so does vw

every mini cooper with a 6-speed auto uses the same aisin transmission, model number GA6F21WA, known in the trade as "F21"

they are/were used in R52 R53 R55 R56 R59 R60

he has replaced F21s in r52,r53,r55 and r56 at the owners expense, $7000 for the transmission and 15.6 hours labor (book time), he does not charge extra for oil, shop fees etc because he can typically beat the book time

he has replaced F21s in R55 R56 R59 R60 under warranty as a subcontractor to mini dealers, ie mini paid him for labor and mini supplied the parts, of these cars, he does not know or have contact with the owner, the dealer brings the car to him and picks it up, he is also not allowed to disassemble warranty trasmissions and they are returned to the dealer ... he notes most of these cars had very low mileage, most under 25,000 miles

labor to replace the auto is 15.6 hours (book time)

of the cars he has replaced autos at the owners expense, mileage at time of failure in the f21, all models of car (mini toyota vw), are between 50,000 and 120,000 miles and none had fluid changes to the owners knowledge

he has also replaced clutchs in r52 r53 r56 at the owners expense, oddly he has not worked on a manual r55 r59 or r60 ... maybe they are all still under warranty and the dealers do not subcontract them out?

mileage ranged from 5,000 to 180,000 miles, he says the lower mileage failures admit that 1 of the drivers has never driven manual before ... he also notes ALL the clutchs showed evidense of having gotten very hot (discoloration of the metal part of the clutch disc), usually caused by slipping the clutch, especially in a drag race style start, ie high rpms and slip the clutch on the start

labor for a clutch replacement is 11 hours (book time), oem parts are $600 (clutch disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing and some misc bits) plus $950 if the flywheel needs to be replaced (he has only replaced 1 flywheel)

so anyone with a 6-speed auto that has had transmission problems, all minis use the same automatic

as of this time, the only parts he can buy are gaskets and seals, no internal parts are available from aisin or the dealers

he claims almost all the failures relate to not changing the fluid and the main problem he has seen is plugged passages in the valve body due to sludge, resulting in a spun bushing in the valve body, resulting in failure of 4th gear and ultimately the entire transmission

he has sucessfully "saved" autos by disassembly cleaning and changing the fluid if they are brought in at the first sign of trouble, ie hard shifting, sluggish shifting, lack of downshifting on slowdown then harsh downshift just as coming to a stop

if the bush has not spun, a fluid change and dissaembly/cleaning may save the tranny

this is data from a single shop in the chicago metro area

he currently has a line on aftermarket valve bodies, but no other aftermarket internal parts as of yet

as my friend does warranty work for multiple mini toyota and vw dealers from the chicago and milwaukee areas he has requested i do not release his identity ... so don't ask

scott

 

Wow! Gettin crazy!!!

Back to the topic, to the five people that burnt your clutch...learn to drive! Mini isn't a bad product.

No one knows what percentage of r60s clutches have failed. So until that information is provided and then compared to the percentage that haven't failed, no one is even right on this thread.

 

Perhaps the story is that the failures represent a very small % of the units produced. That would not scare me. Few if any parts suppliers can claim a zero defect rate. And given that it's likely only a small % of Mini owners participate on these forums, perhaps that explains why the forum is seeing few if any reports of failures in Gen 2 cars.

And no doubt some of the failures are a result of abuse and/or not changing the fluid. I would like to think that the typical forum participant here has more interest in and takes better care of their cars. Obviously that's a very broad statement, but it might be part of the explanation.

Also, Scott says that the same exact trans has been used back into the Gen 1 cars. It may be the same model number, but it seems improbable the manufacturer has not made updates on such a complicated part during all these years, especially after learning what goes wrong in the field. That might explain why the problems seem to be focused on the Gen 1 cars. Of course, transmissions tend to fail at higher mileage, and the answer might simply be that we have not seen Gen 2 transmissions fail in large numbers...yet.

 

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