R56 What is the MINI "LSD"?
Thread Starter
|
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Princeton, NJ
What is the MINI "LSD"?
Can anyone tell me what exactly the type of differential the Mini "LSD" actually is? Is it:
A true LSD i.e. clutch plate style locking differential that provides locking under both loaded (acceleration) and unloaded (deceleration) conditions?
or
A torque biasing differential a.k.a. automatic torque biasing differential (TBD/ATD e.g.. Quaife) i.e. gear type locking differential that provides locking under load but behaves like an open differential (no lock) under deceleration?
or some other type of differential? FWIW, looking at the diagram on the Mini Configurator it looks like there are planetary gears, that and the lower cost and maintenance free nature of TBD would make me venture to guess that Mini probably spec'ed torsen type device.
How does a Mini w/ "LSD" behave under these compared to the Mini w/ open diff?
Cornering under heavy braking is there more/less understeer?
Under hard acceleration more/less torque steer?
Thanks.
A true LSD i.e. clutch plate style locking differential that provides locking under both loaded (acceleration) and unloaded (deceleration) conditions?
or
A torque biasing differential a.k.a. automatic torque biasing differential (TBD/ATD e.g.. Quaife) i.e. gear type locking differential that provides locking under load but behaves like an open differential (no lock) under deceleration?
or some other type of differential? FWIW, looking at the diagram on the Mini Configurator it looks like there are planetary gears, that and the lower cost and maintenance free nature of TBD would make me venture to guess that Mini probably spec'ed torsen type device.
How does a Mini w/ "LSD" behave under these compared to the Mini w/ open diff?
Cornering under heavy braking is there more/less understeer?
Under hard acceleration more/less torque steer?
Thanks.
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Up North
Can anyone tell me what exactly the type of differential the Mini "LSD" actually is? Is it:
A true LSD i.e. clutch plate style locking differential that provides locking under both loaded (acceleration) and unloaded (deceleration) conditions?
or
A torque biasing differential a.k.a. automatic torque biasing differential (TBD/ATD e.g.. Quaife) i.e. gear type locking differential that provides locking under load but behaves like an open differential (no lock) under deceleration?
or some other type of differential? FWIW, looking at the diagram on the Mini Configurator it looks like there are planetary gears, that and the lower cost and maintenance free nature of TBD would make me venture to guess that Mini probably spec'ed torsen type device.
How does a Mini w/ "LSD" behave under these compared to the Mini w/ open diff?
Cornering under heavy braking is there more/less understeer?
Under hard acceleration more/less torque steer?
Thanks.
A true LSD i.e. clutch plate style locking differential that provides locking under both loaded (acceleration) and unloaded (deceleration) conditions?
or
A torque biasing differential a.k.a. automatic torque biasing differential (TBD/ATD e.g.. Quaife) i.e. gear type locking differential that provides locking under load but behaves like an open differential (no lock) under deceleration?
or some other type of differential? FWIW, looking at the diagram on the Mini Configurator it looks like there are planetary gears, that and the lower cost and maintenance free nature of TBD would make me venture to guess that Mini probably spec'ed torsen type device.
How does a Mini w/ "LSD" behave under these compared to the Mini w/ open diff?
Cornering under heavy braking is there more/less understeer?
Under hard acceleration more/less torque steer?
Thanks.
I've had the R56 without and with the LSD - it's the best single upgrade IMO. Cornering under heavy braking? No noticable difference for me yet under braking (few miles and no trackdays yet), but as long as brake pressure is decreasing towards the apex, then you'll have very slight oversteer (nice, like a Kart), nail it and the grip from mid-corner leaves the standard diff in the shade. Maybe there's better ones out there, but for the money it's a no-brainer.
Feels like more torque steer cornering, but less side-to-side pull under hard acceleration.
Thread Starter
|
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Princeton, NJ
Cornering under heavy braking? No noticable difference for me yet under braking (few miles and no trackdays yet), but as long as brake pressure is decreasing towards the apex, then you'll have very slight oversteer (nice, like a Kart), nail it and the grip from mid-corner leaves the standard diff in the shade. Maybe there's better ones out there, but for the money it's a no-brainer.
Feels like more torque steer cornering, but less side-to-side pull under hard acceleration.
Feels like more torque steer cornering, but less side-to-side pull under hard acceleration.
Would you by chance be able to tell me how does the Mini w/ LSD handle under acceleration when there is no load on just one front tire e.g. one tire on ice or off the ground, and the other on dry road?
EDIT: The OEM LSD is in fact a conical clutch type. It is not a planetary geared TBD at all. http://www.gkndriveline.com/drivelin.../Super_LSD.pdf
Last edited by smackboy1; Oct 24, 2007 at 07:03 AM.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
From: Pickens, SC/ Vermillion, SD
very well
My MCS with LSD performs very well in rain and gravel situations, I would expect snow and ice to be similar.
Ifyou're ordering the car anyway, I can't think of a single reason not to get one.
Ifyou're ordering the car anyway, I can't think of a single reason not to get one.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
I'm not surprised that a dealer wouldn't have a spec car with LSD. So many customers wouldn't understand the difference between a limited-slip and an open differential, even if the MA were to describe the difference correctly (which isn't always a sure bet).
In the end, it's hard to sell someone on a $500 option that they might not appreciate, can't see or touch, and don't fully understand.
In the end, it's hard to sell someone on a $500 option that they might not appreciate, can't see or touch, and don't fully understand.
Trending Topics
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Up North
Thanks for the info. I think your seat of the pants description pretty much confirms its a TBD. In a tight corner under heavy braking a clutch type LSD would understeer more than a TBD, which at that point would perform the same as an open diff.
Would you by chance be able to tell me how does the Mini w/ LSD handle under acceleration when there is no load on just one front tire e.g. one tire on ice or off the ground, and the other on dry road?
Would you by chance be able to tell me how does the Mini w/ LSD handle under acceleration when there is no load on just one front tire e.g. one tire on ice or off the ground, and the other on dry road?
With one wheel (virtually) load free? Not sure yet, we don't get much snow, just bucketfulls of rain - and the LSD turns you into der Rainmeister
One thing is for sure, the traction control comes in much later than the std MCS I had before - wonder if anyone knows if the electronics are set up differently for LSD equiped S's?
3rd Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 232
Likes: 6
Here's some more info
If you can read German here's some info:
http://www.arstechnica.de/auto/diffe...ten/super.html
here's a picture of one from a Miata:
http://www.mx5plus.com.au/images/parts/a39.jpg
Based upon what's I've read so far (used babelfish to translate the German) it isn't helical gear type like a Quaiffe or a clutch pack type either. There are friction loads placed upon some cone pieces that help transfer the torque. However, the language in that German article said these pieces never wear out like a traditional clutch pack type differential might.
Here's some more info as a comment from an RX7 forum (Mazda uses an almost identical LSD in their cars):
European first for GKN Driveline’s ‘Super LSD’
http://www.arstechnica.de/auto/diffe...ten/super.html
here's a picture of one from a Miata:
http://www.mx5plus.com.au/images/parts/a39.jpg
Based upon what's I've read so far (used babelfish to translate the German) it isn't helical gear type like a Quaiffe or a clutch pack type either. There are friction loads placed upon some cone pieces that help transfer the torque. However, the language in that German article said these pieces never wear out like a traditional clutch pack type differential might.
Here's some more info as a comment from an RX7 forum (Mazda uses an almost identical LSD in their cars):
Hi InfinitePat, MikeW,
The Tochigi Fuji LSD in the RX-8 is similar to the one used in the Mazdaspeed Protege. It is supposed to provide "highly-improved handling" and was designed for sporty cars.
It is a conical ring torsen type (torque sensing), not the Viscous coupling lock type (speed sensing) which I believe MikeW prefers.
From Mazda: "The sports-dedicated LSD installed in the RX-7 had a high TBR at 2.6 - 3.0 and was designed for exceptionally skilled drivers. For the RX-8, Mazda developed a torque-sensing Super LSD to support enjoyable and safe driving over a wider range of conditions, from everyday maneuvering to forceful driving-at-the-limit. Super LSD has a low TBR of 2.0, which assures predictably smooth vehicle behavior during fast cornering and on low friction road surfaces, and improves stability during the off-the-line acceleration and straight-running".
Mazda sports cars have mainly used Torsens. The Mazdaspeed Protege uses a torsen from Tochigi Fuji also, RX-7s used torsens, Miatas used to use the cheaper viscous type from 1990 - 1993 but had the more effective torsens as an option after 1994.
The RX-8s torsen LSD will work great with the stability control offered in the "Sports package" since it can apply braking on one or more wheels.
Interestingly enough GKN (the German maker of the Viscolock that MikeW likes) spent about 40 million US to acquire Tochigi Fuji.
Finally, here's GKN's press release:The Tochigi Fuji LSD in the RX-8 is similar to the one used in the Mazdaspeed Protege. It is supposed to provide "highly-improved handling" and was designed for sporty cars.
It is a conical ring torsen type (torque sensing), not the Viscous coupling lock type (speed sensing) which I believe MikeW prefers.
From Mazda: "The sports-dedicated LSD installed in the RX-7 had a high TBR at 2.6 - 3.0 and was designed for exceptionally skilled drivers. For the RX-8, Mazda developed a torque-sensing Super LSD to support enjoyable and safe driving over a wider range of conditions, from everyday maneuvering to forceful driving-at-the-limit. Super LSD has a low TBR of 2.0, which assures predictably smooth vehicle behavior during fast cornering and on low friction road surfaces, and improves stability during the off-the-line acceleration and straight-running".
Mazda sports cars have mainly used Torsens. The Mazdaspeed Protege uses a torsen from Tochigi Fuji also, RX-7s used torsens, Miatas used to use the cheaper viscous type from 1990 - 1993 but had the more effective torsens as an option after 1994.
The RX-8s torsen LSD will work great with the stability control offered in the "Sports package" since it can apply braking on one or more wheels.
Interestingly enough GKN (the German maker of the Viscolock that MikeW likes) spent about 40 million US to acquire Tochigi Fuji.
European first for GKN Driveline’s ‘Super LSD’
June 2005
GKN Driveline’s ‘Super Limited Slip Differential’ is now fitted to the highly desirable MINI Cooper S. This is the first production application of the Super LSD in Europe.
GKN Driveline, the world leader in automotive driveline components and systems has significantly extended its service to the industry in recent years with a host of advanced technology drivetrain assemblies from sideshafts to electronically controlled torque management products.
With 161 bhp and performance to propel the front drive hatchback from 0-60 mph in under 8 seconds, the MINI Cooper S requires optimum traction to deliver driver-friendly performance. The mechanically controlled Super LSD enhances the traction of the car.
Graeme Walford, MD of GKN Driveline Torque Technology comments: “The Super LSD is an innovative, compact and cost-effective solution for performance cars and can be fitted in place of open differentials in front or rear axle or transaxle applications.
“The technical sophistication of today’s cars is such that every refinement is vital”, continues Walford. “We are thrilled that a premium brand such as MINI recognises that we have achieved a measurable advance in terms of driver-pleasing vehicle dynamics with our Super LSD. With its torque-sensing technology, our product greatly enhances the dynamics of some performance front drive cars while at the same time delivering excellent responsiveness and a sportier driving experience”.
GKN Driveline’s ‘Super Limited Slip Differential’ is now fitted to the highly desirable MINI Cooper S. This is the first production application of the Super LSD in Europe.
GKN Driveline, the world leader in automotive driveline components and systems has significantly extended its service to the industry in recent years with a host of advanced technology drivetrain assemblies from sideshafts to electronically controlled torque management products.
With 161 bhp and performance to propel the front drive hatchback from 0-60 mph in under 8 seconds, the MINI Cooper S requires optimum traction to deliver driver-friendly performance. The mechanically controlled Super LSD enhances the traction of the car.
Graeme Walford, MD of GKN Driveline Torque Technology comments: “The Super LSD is an innovative, compact and cost-effective solution for performance cars and can be fitted in place of open differentials in front or rear axle or transaxle applications.
“The technical sophistication of today’s cars is such that every refinement is vital”, continues Walford. “We are thrilled that a premium brand such as MINI recognises that we have achieved a measurable advance in terms of driver-pleasing vehicle dynamics with our Super LSD. With its torque-sensing technology, our product greatly enhances the dynamics of some performance front drive cars while at the same time delivering excellent responsiveness and a sportier driving experience”.
I'm glad I found this thread, got my new '08 MCS up on my lift today to look over the suspension/drivetrain and plan some improvements. I was shocked when I found the wheels turning in opposite directions like an open differential :impatient
It was the first time I've come across a torsen LSD as every other aftermarket LSD I've come across has both wheels spinning in the same direction.
Search Torsen LSD for more information on it, unlike clutch-types it'll likely never wear out or need adjusting; The downside is that it only transfers a percentage of the torque, so if one wheel loses all traction, it transfers nothing (back to being an open diff) ..
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm
It was the first time I've come across a torsen LSD as every other aftermarket LSD I've come across has both wheels spinning in the same direction.
Search Torsen LSD for more information on it, unlike clutch-types it'll likely never wear out or need adjusting; The downside is that it only transfers a percentage of the torque, so if one wheel loses all traction, it transfers nothing (back to being an open diff) ..
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm
Neutral
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
I bought my 07 MCS 2 months ago, at that time I wasn't even aware that there is a LSD option! I added pretty much everything else (Premium, Sports, Hypersports etc) but just missed the LSD. Now that many people said LSD is a no brainer, it makes me feel very bad... Did I really miss out all the fun????
The MINI's LSD is a 25 to 31% lock [depending on who you ask] clutch-pack type. It is NOT an ATB/Quaife/Torsen style differential. As a result, it robs steering feel and induces more torque steer than an open diff or an ATB diff. I owned an R56 with the factory LSD, and have now owned 3 R53's with open diffs; the difference is clear; open diffs have superior steering feel and reduced torque steer. I even drove an open-diff R56 and it had much better steering feel to my LSD'd R56. If you haven't spec'd your R56 yet, DO NOT get the factory LSD. Wait for Quaife to release their ATB for the R56 and spend the money on a proper limited slip diff that doesn't ruin the feel of the car.
Now, all that said, if you auto-x or track you car more than drive it on the street, by all means, the factory LSD option is a big improvement in terms of lap-times; just expect to have the steering wheel ripped out of your hands if you're not clamped onto the wheel!
Now, all that said, if you auto-x or track you car more than drive it on the street, by all means, the factory LSD option is a big improvement in terms of lap-times; just expect to have the steering wheel ripped out of your hands if you're not clamped onto the wheel!
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Up North
The MINI's LSD is a 25 to 31% lock [depending on who you ask] clutch-pack type. It is NOT an ATB/Quaife/Torsen style differential. As a result, it robs steering feel and induces more torque steer than an open diff or an ATB diff. I owned an R56 with the factory LSD, and have now owned 3 R53's with open diffs; the difference is clear; open diffs have superior steering feel and reduced torque steer. I even drove an open-diff R56 and it had much better steering feel to my LSD'd R56. If you haven't spec'd your R56 yet, DO NOT get the factory LSD. Wait for Quaife to release their ATB for the R56 and spend the money on a proper limited slip diff that doesn't ruin the feel of the car.
Now, all that said, if you auto-x or track you car more than drive it on the street, by all means, the factory LSD option is a big improvement in terms of lap-times; just expect to have the steering wheel ripped out of your hands if you're not clamped onto the wheel!
Now, all that said, if you auto-x or track you car more than drive it on the street, by all means, the factory LSD option is a big improvement in terms of lap-times; just expect to have the steering wheel ripped out of your hands if you're not clamped onto the wheel!
Only kidding
Yeah, there will always be better diffs (and I agree with you), just as there will always be options other than the JCW performance parts - for me it was simply that the warranty comes first at the moment, and it was a very cheap option!Having said that, over the std car I can have the full spectrum of full opposite lock, full understeer or a proper kart-like slight tail out into apex, straight out from the apex. Without the inside wheel spinning its nuts off. Sweet heaven........
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
Agreed, there are obviously better LSDs on the market, but for about $10/mo on a 5 year loan (in a lot of cases), and NOT having to have it installed after the fact, it's most definitely a good value.
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Would anyone elaborate on the cost difference between the oem LSD and putting in aftermarket after the fact? The aftermarket install will entail a substantial amount of work.
I would say that the oem LSD is a much better option for most people. Plus you do not have waranty issues arising from the install.
I would say that the oem LSD is a much better option for most people. Plus you do not have waranty issues arising from the install.
Last edited by goosefraba; Mar 2, 2008 at 05:48 PM. Reason: speling
OEM clutch-pack LSD: $500, factory installed, full warranty, rolls into financing [if you finance], builds forearms!
Quaife or equivalent LSD: About $1000 for diff and about $1000 for install. Will cause havoc for factory transmission warranty, big cash out-of-pocket, big grin on both street and track.
Quaife or equivalent LSD: About $1000 for diff and about $1000 for install. Will cause havoc for factory transmission warranty, big cash out-of-pocket, big grin on both street and track.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
I think you're being a bit overdramatic, yeah? Even with torque steer at its worst (low gear, stomp on gas, off-camber road), it's just not that tough to keep the wheel steady... and I'm a bit of a weakling 
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
From: Windy City
LSD retro fit
I am also one of the unfortunates who mistakingly skipped on the lsd option. So, with say the quaife lsd, does it void any of the factory warrenty/maintenece? If so, i guess id be better to wait till 50,000 miles are up to do my autocrossing. How complex is an lsd install?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
igzekyativ
MINIs & Minis for Sale
28
Dec 23, 2015 10:36 AM
ECSTuning
Vendor Classifieds
0
Aug 7, 2015 05:55 AM