What do you think of these: http://www.safedrives.com/products.asp?cat=82. Looks like a better alternative to the Hans device...

See http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shar...ck&IL=r3device for a better description.

 

pure&simple, and others. This is a good link to help answer this question on which device.
http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Head_and_Neck_Restraints

 

Great link. Of note is that the Hans requires a multi-point harness and the R3 does not. I have no plans to do a multi-point harness, so I would be looking at the R3... however, anyone care to comment on this statement from the article:

"[The R3] works... with both 6pt and 3pt belt systems, although whether anyone needs a device when the body is not really restrained (i.e. with a 3pt belt) has not been proved. "

 

My personal opinion is that I would stick with a HANS device. It is the only legal device for the FIA and NASCAR. You may remember Tony Stewart initially wearing a Hutchens device, but for the last couple of years the HANS is the only accepted restraint system.

pure and simple, I would be investing in a Schroth type seatbelt or a full 5 or 6 point before considering a head restraint system. The HANS will only work properly with a decent 5/6 point system. It would not be 100% effective with a Schroth and would not work at all with a OEM 3 point.

I have no experience with the R3, and have not seen any drivers wearing one (note the drivers they refer to are all drag racers). I wonder how effective they will be in an accident that is not a direct head on impact. The Hutchens device is by far the most confortable to wear though, compared to a HANS.

 

But why would you wear one if you have operational air bags in the car?

 

Dunno. Are you saying it's unnecessary? That's sorta why I asked about the R3, because I didn't know if it was worth investing in for my situation.

The issues are:
1. Is the R3 really helpful if you're not using a multi-point harness?
2. Is the R3 helpful if you have airbags in the car?

Thoughts?

 

That's why I asked. It seems that with a working drivers side airbag the restraint device would be superfluous. It is designed to restrict the forward movement of the head and helmet so as to reduce the forces applied to the neck. With the airbag working, I would think that would be a better safety device. But I have no proof of this, just an observation.

 

Perhaps just a collar would be sufficient given a 3pt belt and airbags?

 

Just wondering how folks here are mounting their leg straps of a 6 point harness?

Since I have a Sparco 6 point harness, I'm going to mount mine according to Sparco's manual.

Sparco's instruction manual says the following:
Anchor points shall be approximately 100 mm [4”] lateral apart from each other".



However, SCCA GCR 20.5 & 6 says:
"5. The single anti submarine strap of the five point system shall
be attached to the floor structure and have a metal to metal
connection with the single release common to the seat belt and
shoulder harness.
6. The double leg straps of the six point or seven-point system
may be attached to the floor as above for the five point system
or be attached to the seat belt so that the driver sits on them,
passing them up between his or her legs and attaching either to
the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness
or attaching to the shoulder harness straps. It is also permissible
for the leg straps to be secured at a point common to the seat
belt attachment to the structure, passing under the driver and
up between his or her legs to the seat belt release or shoulder
harness straps.
All straps shall be free to run through intermediate loops or
clamps/buckles".

Just wondering.
Thanks,
kmickey

 

Mickey,

This is an interesting topic, and one that needs to be addressed throughout the racing community. Glad you brought it up.
Not sure we will find the answer here on NAM, but it would be great if someone who really knows 100% could post here.
Here is the problem as I have seen it. Most racing clubs, BMWCCA, SCCA and others are doing away with the five point harness and will be mandating the six or seven point harness. Being this is the case most racers out there have and are switching over to the six point system. The problem is that most race seats out there are only set up for the five point harness being that they only have that single anti sub hole and NOT the single sub hole AND the two pelvis strap holes.
The six point system seems to be being used incorrectly as most are using the two pelvis restraints as anti sub belts. These two lower belts are not there to double the anti sub strength, but are there for pelvis restraints. So, as you see in reading the SCCA rules, they are meant to go under each leg and back to the location of the lap belt pickup points. The pelvis restraints are very important and should really be talked about, but it seems that most don't want to because they are not being used correctly.

All of this of course in IMHO. For me, I now am using a seven point harness as my seat is one of the few that is actually set up for a six and seven point harness. ( I love my seat... )

 

Need a little confidence builder here before I drill the hole for the right side lap belt anchor.

Thinking of installing the anchor bolt as close as possable to the tunnel. This would keep the lap belt slightly wider than the width of my Sparaco Pro 2000 seat. I'm trying to prevent a pressure point on the side of the seat shell.

Better yet, does anyone have any pics of their lap belt anchor locations?

I know what I'm doing. Just not sure

Thanks in advance,
kmickey

 

Nice read ... good source

 

Added this: Just reread you post Mickey, don't go in the floor, go through the tunnel....


Mickey, that's a good spot. Go as low as you can possibly go on the tunnel. The tunnel is a great spot as it's heavier gage steel there. The floor is like paper in these cars.
Once you drill through, shove the eyebolt in the hole, you need to get under the car and peel back the heat shield. You'll feel the bolt there. This is why you want to go as low as possible as if you go height you will need to remove the exhaust and heat shield to get to it.
Good luck. Show us some pictures.

By the way, if you are also doing the passenger side you will have to deal with a low section on the tunnel where the e-brake fits. You really need to again go as low as possible so you can get a washer behind there. You might have to grind that big washer down a bit to make it fit under the section.

 

Thanks Greg!
I'll mount it through the tunnel just as you described.
I agree, the floorboard is really thin.

That also concerns me about mounting the sub-belts under the seat with eye bolts through the floorboard.
With some B.A. washers, should be OK?
Any thoughts on that one?

Have to complete this -this afternoon. Then I'm going for a pre-tech inspection later this afternoon. I'm deadline driven!
Packing up for Thunderhill Race park tonight for some HOT track time. Really, its going to be around 108°f tomorrow.

kmickey

 

From an educational stand-point, and if not much trouble Mickey, photos would be appreciated. Speaking of Thunderhill, I was just watching this vid of an Atom there. It was his first time tracking the Atom...

http://www.atomguy.com/dp35_Atom1stTrackDay.wmv

There seems to be several blind spots, and the track looks to be somewhat difficult with turns that reduce in radius. Maybe it's just percetion from this vid and others I've seen...

Good luck Mickey!

 

Yea, that sounds OK and is the only thing you can really do at this point.

Have a great time Mickey It would be nice to see some in car vids from you again sometime. Maybe soon?

 

When you gettin yours Tony?????
Interesting car....

Speak off cars..... This little classic just came on the market...
Would make a great DE car.... Hmmmmmmmmm

 

The Atom in the vid is Honda powered (NA)...

Seems to be somewhat difficult to get these on the public roads though. Threads like these just make me feel that it's not worth the hassle, at least in CA:

http://forum.atomclub.com/index.php?...d&topic=1301.0

http://forum.atomclub.com/index.php?...d&topic=2067.0

That SuperStalker V6 is a different story though! Sorry for taking us off course a bit...

 

In practice I don't think that need be a problem. The double sub-straps in my M3 (6-pt Schroth Profi-III harnesses) are configured to cross over each other; they pass nicely through the normal single slot in the Recaro seat. I have the subs adjusted so that the T-shaped latch rides as low as possible without getting between my thighs (oooh!) and this makes for good comfort and excellent harness geometry.

I think there's some confusion here. There are a couple of completely different 6-pt setups.

The traditional 6-pt such as mine is basically an improved 5-pt. It provides both better safety and comfort, as well as much reduced liklihood of a really, really personal injury.

What I'll call the "sit-on" 6-pt is a fairly recent development modeled on parachute harnesses, and works differently. With the lower straps (the ones you sit on top of) routed and mounted correctly the wearer gets protection against submarining essentially by having the pelvis sitting in a pair of loops, one around each leg. (At the car end these lower straps are ideally mounted to the same points as the lap harnesses, and at the harness end they connect to the lap harnesses via D-rings on either side of the central buckle.)

This contrasts with the traditional 5/6-pt where that anti-sub function is accomplished by the lap harness being pulled down by the sub-straps(s).

The sit-on 6-pt can be further refined by adding a single sub-belt, just like that in a 5-pt installation, making it a 7-pt. Onasled, I'm assuming that's what you have?

The sit-on can have just the problem Onasled describes, depending on the race seat. In fact they may work better with a non-race seat where there's a gap between the back and the seat through which the lower straps can pass.

The biggest problem with conventional sub-straps in a converted road car like a Mini or my M3 is mounting them safely. Vertical angle is a function both of seat position and mounting point, which means that for a given fixed mount the critical sub-strap angle is only going to be acceptable for a narrow range of seat positions. That's OK for a fixed position race seat, but poses problems for seats on sliders. Also finding a suitable mounting point is likely to be difficult, since the floor pan is generally flimsy, and in many cases there are other obstructions under the seat. At the very least there should be a 4"x4" SCCA style reinforcing plate under the floor pan.

The sit-ons get around this to a large extent since they're anchored to the same points as the lap harness.

I ride in a lot of other people's track cars and I'd say that in at least half of them the harnesses are improperly installed in some respect, sometimes minor, sometimes not. And those are just the problems I can spot casually.

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

So... I've got a 6-point and stock seats. Crappy solution, I know. But it's where I am right now.

I thought about the "sit on top" solution for the sub belts with the belts routed back between the set bottom and seat back, and attached to the same points as the lap belts (of the harness). The problem was that the sub belts were too short (I think). If that's the case, how big a deal is it to get longer sub belt straps? I may re-try routing the belts that way this weekend to see if the straps I have really are long enough. If not, perhaps I should see if I can find some longer sub belts... Anyone have a link handy for just pieces of a harness?

 

In all likelihood, yes, depending on what you've done with the sub straps.

If they've been led over the front of the seat then they do essentially nothing in a crash. In a frontal impact the lap belts stretch, allowing slack in the subs if they're angled forward. This allows the lap belt to ride up and you submarine.

Separate harness elements may be available, depending on which make of harness you have (you didn't say).

We installed a 6-pt sit-on in a friend's C5 Z06 with stock seats a few years ago and it seemed to work quite well. (I say "seemed" only because he never crashed it...)

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

I tried a little harder to do the "sit on top" sub belts yesterday, and things worked out. I had to disconnect the carpet thing that is on the back / bottom of the seat, and the straps are just barely long enough to reach to a clip secured under the seat rails.

It definitely feels much more secure than running the straps over the front edge of the seat.

 

Jasen,
Glad you got that worked out. I meant to contact you about doing this shortly after we talked.

Neil, that's for the informative post. Good input
Yea, I'm using the Schroth Hybrid II-6H with an added sub starp. My seats have all the correct slots for all these belts.

 

Is it ok to use the Schroth Quick Fit system on another seat then stock? Or do they only "work" with stock MINI-seats?

 

great thread fellas. I'm in the same boat as snid. roll bar and stock seat. maybe next year i can get the seats. I'm trying to find out what 6pt. harness with the between seat back and seat bottom sit-on sub straps anyone recomends. I saw someone else that mounted the sit on straps between the seat rail and floor in the back. Wouldn't that be a shorter route than back to the roll bar? Don't have the harness yet so I don't know. Also, BMW club requires similar restraints for driver and passenger so i have to have two. I'll have some lightly used schroth 4pt's for sale soon.