A DOZEN days???

Thats almost a full season for most racers.

Build car. take it out to open track day. Run a few laps and come in, inspect car. Maybe fix a little leak and make a few adjustments if all is going well. Go out again, hopefully the same day, and start pushing it a little more. Come back in check over all systems. Once all teh systems feel right and are not leaking or falling off then start to push the more and more. At this point I'd think you would want to get lap times. How do you know the adjustments made by feel are not taking you backwards time wise if yuo don't have anything to compare them too. This car must be designed to run in some class. Without times early on how do you if you are even close to what the class avgs? Yuo have to be prepared either way, if it's slow as heck you need to find out why. If it's faster then other cars in the same class right out of the box you had better know why too. While times may fall during testing like Atlanta did when Sherman dropped by you still need to know whats going on.

 

If you have read Mark Donohue's "The Unfair Advantage", you'll remember that every time they get a new race car, they run it around the track and write down their times. Then they do something and the times get better. Or worse. Until they win yet another championship. Initial times are interesting. They probably won't tell you that the car is done, but that doesn't make them uninteresting. This discussion is reminding me a little of the montreal boy racers who won't come do a DE until they do one more thing to their car, so we never ever see them. You go to the race track. You run the car. The time sucks. You write it down anyway. You do something. You go back to the track. Etc. The process of improvement and what you did to improve is WAY more interesting than if onasled just told us that he went to nhis and did a 1:10 out of the box.


If you haven't read The Unfair Advantage, there would be much worse ways to spend a few hours. It's a well written book by possibly the greatest engineer/racer of our time. (Note: he was both. Lots of people potentially better at one or the other than Mark. Mark's magic was the combination.)

Looking forward to some interesting car development stories.

 

..... well, Merry Christmas all. I see some here are out to spread that Christmas joy. ...

Gnatster, I appreciate the post here and the concern(?) that I or other readers might be mislead by Beecher's thoughts on what it takes to bring a new race car to the track. I was not in the know that you may have the personal experience on this procedure. I enjoy this road race forum, or I did at one point, and it would be cool if you started a thread on your past experiences on building race cars and the process you went through to get them up to speed.

John, ... you should come by sometime and check out the car! I can't be more then 90 min from anywhere in RI. In fact I'm on my way to Newport this morning. Paul, who also lives in RI has been a GREAT help in this build might come out Wednesday along with Randy (of M7) and Partsman. Your welcome to join us.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all here, even the meanies....

 

I need a CV to post my thoughts?

I've only been screwing around as part of race teams since 1986 when I was working at a tire shop in the DC area. We were the only place in town that stocked Goodyear NCT, Yokohama A-008's and BFG Comp T/A's along with BBS, MSW (now OZ Racing) and Gotti. This was long before every shop in town had access. Anyway, I was the tire person on a fairly successful Showroom Stock team. We ran a Dodge Charger GLHS and Omni GLHS, not exactly the most sexy cars but quite fast in class. I learned then all about pressures and how to properly user a pyrometer. We took copious notes at every track for every track session on all setup aspects. Comp T/A R's were brand new back then and we all were learning quite a bit. Ever lap on track was timed so we knew what did and did not work. Even the very first lap with a brand new out of the box, car. After a few years the team principle decided he wanted to follow the money and that was in NASCAR. With no desire to go round and round I left. Since then I've worked with Spec RX-7's, ITS RX-7's, EP RX-7's, ITA RX-7's, ITA Miatas and Spec-Miata's working with the group that started the Spec RX-7 in the Mid-Atlantic region. I've also worked on a Formula Mazda team that never got far, but was a perennial mid pack finisher in regional outings. Currently I'm working with a gentleman in the Dallas area, where I now live, to help setup a car for BMW-CCA Club racing.

My own driving experience is quite varied. I cut my teeth at Summit Point's Friday at the Track becoming an instructor there after my first season. That lead to other instructor gigs for other groups not only at my home track but all over the North-East and as far west as Mid-Ohio and Putnam Park. I learned early on I'd never be much of a racer, I lack the danglies. Thats OK, I enjoy DE's quite a bit.

My library at home is filled with loads of Motorsport books, not pretty coffee table books either but from authors like the aforementioned Mark Donahue along with Carroll Smith and quite a few racing biography's that discuss car setup.

So, I'm not being mean when I wonder why right out of the box times along with setup notes will not be kept, just being analytical.

So what is it that makes you think this MINI is a gift to road racing?

How do you know if the design is sound if all you do is drive it around and never time the laps?

What sanctioning body and class was this car built to compete in?

Whats your background?

 

Wow, and Merry Christmas to you. How come in all the threads you seem to post in you always seem to know whats best? The OP here is exicted about his car and all you can seem to do is dump on him, why?

 

Maybe cause onasled really has no idea what he is going to do with his "project"?

I have yet to see anything posted about what class he expects to compete in, or anything about his background.

 

Boo. Hate the game, not the player. What's up with this little kid pissing match?

Oh, merry christmas, too.

 

I really can't understand everyone's big deal about Greg's car. If you followed his posts when this project started, it was about the fun he had driving on the track in his MINI. He wanted to take his project further in which he decided to build a car that no one ever thought would be competitive. He stated he wanted to try BMWCCA Club racing where alot of people start. D- mod was also in his posts. Whether you like his choice of products or sponsor's should really be of no concern as far as I can see. Let the man build his car and see what happens when it gets to the track and he finally gets a BMWCCA Club racer licence. It's his dream whether it works out or not. I don't see many here attempt such a project. Until you do and put your money into such a project, let in be what it is. His dream.

Happy Holidays

 

Merry Christmas to you too.

Not saying whats best here, I rarely do, I state my opinions. But I also only open my mouth (or in this case my keyboard) when I either have a question or feel I know an answer. I've been involved with racing and usually when one says "hey lets go race" they have researched the class they want to run in before they build a car. From the little I have read of the BMW-CCA Club racing this looks to be a DM car. The interior looks to be to far gone for JP or IP. I'm not conversant in NASA or SCCA rules so can't make a comment as to this build for those groups.

I'm excited to see a MINI built to be a racer. I'm not dumping on the car, the quality of the build, the setup or any number of factors. Only wondering the reasoning of the decisions that were made. I'd ask the same questions sitting there in the garage with the OP beer in hand. Are we not allowed to ask now, must we just bow to fact that someone is building a race MINI. It's even possible that something useful will emerge from this discourse.

 

He has mentioned multiple times that he intends to run in D-mod of BMWCCA....and it's been discussed on three forums that i know you post on (NAM, MU, Nuts)

 

Thanks

What threw me off was the lack of engine mods. DM allows for quite a bit. Even the displacement could be upped a bit to a max of 1986 cc using the forced induction equivalent displacement of up to 2980cc the rules provide.

See page 75 of the BMW-CCA rulebook V12.2 for displacement
See page 41 of the BMW-CCA rulebook V12.2 for Engine

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/stat...7_-_v12.2g.pdf

 

BMWCCA...........this is basically going to be a club racer?

 

Sorry, but I asked a couple of time what his plans were and got no response.

 

I believe the engine will be done after this summers season. I think he wants to work suspension and other things out before a complete engine program begins.

 

Exactly, from the the beginning Greg has targeted his project more specifically to BMWCCA racing in D-Modified class. I started racing with BMW club racing in what I thought was the entry level class suited for the Mini, J-Prepared. Soon I was forced to make a decision to change classes or not race with BMWCCA.
The decision was to covert the car to DM, read the rules and start modifying the car.This has been and ongoing experiment since March of 2005.
Greg on the other hand has carefully planned and executed a very comprehensive race car build for his Mini. Starting from scratch with a determined goal has to produce a quality end result when no details are left out and time is not of the essence.
It's understadable that all you people out there are curious about the outcome of his project and what kind of results he will produce once he gets it on track, gets his license and finally starts racing.
I for sure am interested because Greg will be competing in my class and surely will be competitive. Greg & I believe that we can win in D-Mod. From what he has built, he will be off to a quick start.

Minis like ours can also compete in NASA races in the GTS class,their rules require a current Dyno run sheet and car weight to determine wheel HP to weight ratio as class group (I belive this is correct?)
Wish him the best of luck!
I can't beleive more people don't get involved and build a DM Mini as well.
There are a few of you people out there dying to race a MIni, there are even a few race prepared cars that could esily be brought up to DM standards.
Go for it!
Happy Holidays!
Steve

 

Thanks Steve

Your input may help people understand what Greg , J Propane (Alain) and yourself are trying to accomplish.

 

Hmmm, ...lot'sa post while I was having fun in Newport.

Funny how people can post mean and ugly post about me and my car throughout the cyber world and then pretend to post here in a sincere matter. Maybe most of you are just still quite young and just don't know better? Play stupid all you want, ... consider me stupid, but all in all it's just valuable time filled with wasted energy and negative vibes. Just wish it would all quit. Life is good for me and I'm doing something that I've wanted to do since I was about 13 years old. For those that don't know, that was about 38 years ago... .
As some have pointed out, it's been known that I am building this car within the BMWCR D mod and NASA GTS rules, which are both very open.

Couple of things I'd like to set straight, things that I have read around the net that have never made sense to me.
One, I have NEVER said anything about my driving abilities with the exception that I may not be so good and that I may not even be able to drive this car. To me the 'build' was a huge part of my joy.
Two, I have never said that this car is any "gift to road racing" I did state that I feel it's about the best Mini build that I know of in the country,that much I believe is true. This is in no way saying that I will show up at my first race, press the start button, and win the race. It WILL take time, ... and money, which I need to be careful with when it comes to the motor.

OK,the motor, as I stated before, is an separate project on it's own. I believe that there are two parts to a race car. The chassis and suspension, and then the power and drivetrain.
It's not been proven to me yet that all these highly modded mini motors are the right way to go. They most likely are, but I'm not dumping 10K into the motor just to blow it up in the first race. The Minis that I know that are fast and reliable have few mods, .. as far as I know.
Be patient with this car. It's been two years of a "grassroots" build, and will continue to be a grassroots campaign.

Gnatster, if you have been involved with racing that long then maybe it's just been with bigger 'team' race teams. Doing this as a grassroots club racer will take at least the first year to find, or come close to a sweet spot that I then can refine. Maybe I will get lucky and find that all my assumptions have been spot on and that I have a car that is dam good right out of the box, but that would be a foolish assumption for sure.
Don't think I have just built a "race car" without knowing what I am doing and what the "rules" are. Every step of this build has been along the guidelines of both the BMWCR Dmod class and the SCCA safety rules. I've built and raced sailboats for many years so believe me, I know rules.

A quick background on my motorsports experience, ... it started when I was 17 when I worked for Grant King and then crewed for his two entries in the 75(?) Indy 500. I've been around racing for a while. Not a big deal, ... but when I read the stuff that some write about me and my car, I just wonder where their expertise comes from.

Questions? Cool, no problem. Suggestions? Well I love'm and if anyone ever followed my threads on the BMW forum they would know that I ask for them and am grateful for them.

Again, I thank those that have supported me and encouraged me with this build. I'm just an old guy that's finally doing something he's wanted to do since he was a kid. I hope the same for all of you and I hope that by me doing this at the age of 51 that you will have faith that it's never too late.

 

No worries....i was just sharing it in case you hadn't seen it.

 

Yes, thanks Steve. I was long winding it when you posted...


Steve and I have talked a good amount throughout the last couple of years. We share our knowledge, ideas, and experiences and have helped each other through some issues.
I think Steve may back me up on my motor mod thoughts, but I'm actually not sure just what he has done

 

.....by the way, when did "I" ever comment on how "I" was planning on keeping data on this car? I've only invested over $2K into a data acquisitioning system. No one even asked!

 

Greg, thanks.

For the record, I'm not out to get you, and I know I come off as a bit gruff since I don't fill my posts with platitudes and smilies.

I haven't followed your posts on the BMW site, I was following them here until there were some differences and you started pulling previous posts. But thats that and this is this. My only exposure is what has been on NAM and without the previous posts I had no reference to look back too. Hence I questioned the build process for an unknown class.

Having been dealing with racing as part of a larger team my own learning curve as a crew member has been very quick. By no means am I a guy going over the wall but am just another brain and set of hands to figure things out. Heck, I don't think I could even leap a wall.

I can understand wanting to have a separate development for the engine but I also have to wonder how much you are leaving on the table by not having what I think is the grunt to keep up with other DM cars. Will you get frustrated as they pull you down the straights. Thats for you to decide.

I hope to see you get this on track for the upcoming season and look forward to seeing the results. Something makes me think you will be looking for ways to bump up the lump sooner then you think.

The gentleman I am working with is talking of running a MINI in JP, but that would entail removing all the Dinan stuff he now has. IP is looking better and better. The question we have is if there is enough others running IP locally to make it worthwhile. No one like to run in a single car class, the victories are hollow. We still have quite a bit to do to prep that car and the 08 season is fast approaching here in TX. We hope to have the car out for a shakedown at the first DE of the year Jan 18-19. So believe me, I know the time constraints and the amount of work that needs to be done to get a car ready.

When it does come time for you work on the motor I think you will find a few people around here that really do understand what it takes to wring some power out of them and keep them alive.

 

Thanks Greg,
We are not too far apart in age (54, soon to be 55) or ideas on what might work for improving our Minis. Like Greg, I have race sailboats far longer and than I have race cars. Although growing up in Rio de Janeiro and having friends that were seriously connected to motorsports sure gave me some basic training at the age of 18.
Like Greg, my dream of racing only came at the age of 50, four years later and I'm loving every moment of it.
Feel free to contact me any time, sharing info benefits all of us.
Cheers,
Steve

 

Careful 'natster, you might end up in the same boat as Rally.

Thanks, I appreciate this gesture here, thanks .
I know that I might likely be left in the dust with the power I have now, but I also think that some, including me, could be surprised with what power I already have. I haven't spoken much on what mods I have done to the motor, but do understand that it's not close to stock. Just that very short test in the parking lot was quite encouraging. Let's face it though. The Glen will never be a fun place to race a Mini..
Time will tell, very soon. I'm not worried as I do feel that I can build a motor in a couple of weeks. That's really the easy part after what's been done so far.
I'll keep ya posted. But I will say that if this thread gets ugly, I won't be sharing much here. The BMW forum is a fantastic place to participate if you plan on building a real race car. These guys know what they are doing and there is so much to learn from them. As you know, it's a never ending education. this race car stuff.

 

I'm in a boat? Sounds fun Let's go canoing gnat

Onasled, where are you gonna be tracking the car? Sticking mainly to the local tracks or are you gonna trailer it to a few other events?

 

OK, do tell...

I've been using a G2X but someone lent me a Performance Box. Both have stupidly thought out interfaces The Performance box is better at showing actual GPS lap data. The G2X allows on to log more items.

If I was to do it again I'd have gone for a Stack Dash