You know there are those who have ceased to care about what BMW currently puts out and that the market for used M#s is certainly a sellers market, and there are those who think the E90 is hideous largely because it now has similar styling to the Toyota Camry, and has been watered down to sell better.

Take the Miata, if they watered it down, added roof, doors, softer suspension, cargo space and made it more main stream then they wouldn't have the enthisiast following. (and you would have the Mazda 3)

Now while not as extreme the R56 is even less MINI than the R53 was, and it is still called the BMW MINI instead of just MINI by many who dislike the newer rendition; that divide while I don't want it to happen is a real risk. Like I said before they did what they had to do to keep the brand going into the mass market.

 

I have seen this several places here, but what I don't understand is that compared to the classic mini the MINI R53 is night and day different. Would that change be considered more in line with moving aware for the core design?

While there are obvious changes between the R53 and the R56 and many people with perfer the R53 isn't then change from R53 to R56 less of a shock than previous changes?

 

no ... that's a Toyota Camry

and if BMW would be really worried at capturing a wider audience they should start by expanding their dealer fleet. If in a metropolitan area like NYC it takes me 37 miles to visit my dealer ... well ... you average joe won't be buying

 

If having things break a lot and a rough ride equals soul, the Yugo must be the most soulful car ever built.

Before MINI expands the dealerships enough so New Yorkers don't need to drive 37 miles to the nearest dealer, maybe they should build a few new dealerships around the country to reduce the drive for many of us from 300 miles to, say 150 or so.

 

Not a soul on this soil this side of the planet has driven an R56, no one. So why anyone would start all this hoop-lah about how the "Mini has lost its' soul" is retarded. Yes the R56 is more refined, rightfully so, the R56 is a product of consumer research all according to the likes and dislikes of the current car + BMW's technological prowess and current market trends for the segment. To boot, I have yet to read a single negative review of the R56. It's very typical for current owners of a current model to have great concern about their model generations sucesssor. Normally I don't really pay much attention to this kind of ranting, however this is stupid.

 

If they discussed this in a meeting, that's fine....maybe they're just generally paranoid about their sales/jobs....worried about the caution they see expressed by some MINI owners....the same normal, typical debate we see here. They can wring their hands all they want...I chalk it up to office gossip and lack of imagination.

Seems to me that test drive reports (from people who actually have driven an R56) have been pretty darn glowing and even enthusiasts who have driven them really like the car. R56 will not be hard to sell, but they will have some ramping up to do, and may have to have a slightly different sales approach, and even may have a different kind of enthusiast to deal with than the kind some of them may be used to. Of course, not having an R56 to show anybody kinda makes it tough, too.

Transitions are hard on some people. I sure hope this sales guy gets his act together soon. The MINI is evolving...like it or not...and I think a grand case can be made for this being a definite glass-half-full situation. Yes, we'll miss some things w/ R50-53, but there's lots of new stuff to love, too!!

 

Of all the things you've read, you apparently didn't read this thread very closely. Nobody is starting anything, just relating the opinions of a Mini sales manager. You're a good reminder of why I don't bother coming around here very often. Thanks!

But if you like, I'll PM you his name and dealer so you can cripple him with terms like "retarded" and "stupid." Dug those out from the high school debate team, did ya?

 

but in essence you have started something by taking these dealer comments out of the closed confine of a industry conference and inserting them into this public forum. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. Interesting comments.

 

My biggest concern with the R56 is actually the handling, by far the R53's most impressive feature, softer ride would be a boon, but not if it sacrificed cornering. I've got an '03s and by the time I put MTH and a 15% pulley on it, i'm not really concerned about the new model. The stock '03s had torque issues up to about 3k rpm, and from what i've read of the turbo'd motor, that won't be a concern, developing excellent torque at 1500 rpm. I wouldn't even worry about inferior handling as long as the sport package resolves the issue.

 

As big a shock no, but what it does do is pull the model even further away from the original concept. Its bigger, it has more power, it will alegedlt be more fuel efficent, it has less function and more show and it has lost more character. also manufacturing, this car was redesgined not for the handling, not for the economy, not for the maximization of space but instead for the maximum profit for BMW. So yes I can very much understand why without driving it you could still say it has lost its soul.


Another interesting point is many from MINI and BMW have also tried to minimize the changes, saying the average person couldn't tell the differance while driving in traffic. Well thats obviously not going to be the case, I know someone who had little exposure to MINIs and he picked out right away my 05 bumper was different than he had seen on other MINIs.

I truly feel based on what BMW/MINI has released that they have removed anelement of the fun factor. That this was a move to make MINI mainstream, and that any hope of making MINI revolutionary as the Classics were, and to a lesser but still relevant extent the R50/R53 was, that the future of the brand is basically going to be following VW, Honda and other direct competitor cars, instead of finding new ways to be innovative. Again loosing the soul of the car.

The turn mainstream is why I think they will lose a chunk of the core enthusiast group. I have no doubt that it will be a good car, that sales will stay to the point where theere is a waiting list. But face it what will change is the face of the owner and some of the attitude toward the brand. My fear is that we are watching the car beocme a GTI, R56 is a step in that direction, but not there just yet.

I really think this is a point of wait and see, after it arrives, well thats when the flood gates will open and the Cooper vs Cooper S or which CAI is best debates will become child's play and you'll find people will ethier love it or hate it (much the same way the public is with todays MINIs).

 

I'm afraid there is also a risk in alienating the next generation of BMW/Peugeot/MINI enthusiasts by the Rover/Chrysler/MINI ONLY die-hards.

What I mean is that if you get too many people questioning the dedication of the next generation of MINI owners just based on their selection of the R56 and you could have yourself a self fulfilling profacy (ie. the slow demise of the enthusiast groups). Questions someone's dedication towards the brand after they've spent a good chunk of change for their new ride... and, well... they might not want to keep coming around.

Now, obviously I'm a strong supporter of the R56. But it's going to be a looooooooonnnnnnggggg wait from now until that test drive when I can actually see for myself. An even longer wait until the car actually arrives (should I follow through with my puchase). I for one hope to be welcomed by the existing MINI community once everything falls into place.

 

I agree, even though on an average weekday morning it would take the same amount of time covering those miles

 

Folks I'd recommend taking a deep breath and relax. The introduction of a new model invariably brings this type of discussion - regardless of the marque. I'm a long time BMW fan and you can't imagine the discourse within the BMW Car Club of America each time a new version of the 3, 5 or 7 Series comes around. Bottom line - we're all crazy about our cars. I'm nuts about my '06 MCSa and I'm sure we'll have new members of our community that will justifiably feel the same way about their '07 MINIs. That's all part of the fun of being in the company of like minded car fanatics

 

All this talk of a so-called rift between Rover/MINI and BMW/MINI owners is speculative rubbish. The only ones who might create their own rifts are snooty elitists driven by their own egos and superiority complexes, and these folks will be very few and far between. Most of us won't care.

 

If reports of "less jittery" and "more planted" handling are to be believed (I personally think they are quite credible) then MINI handling is not in jeopardy at all. It seems that's the big shocker in the R56 test drives...the car seems less on edge at first, but in fact handles anything the testers tossed at it...and w/ a degree of poise! This could be some serious fun!!

In the end we may be part of the "problem"...we will have to make room for another perfectly valid definition of superb handling.

No, I think BMW is making the best MINI they can...period. It may appeal to more people for daily consumer use. Fine...that makes sense. But...let the tuners at it and one can create quite a different beast. We may have to rethink our approach to R56.

 

If the R56 was the first incarnation of the new Mini and there was no R53 to compare it to, enthusiasts would be going ga-ga over it. Since this is not the first version, they also have the advantage of knowing there will be lots of aftermarket mods offered to help them make their R56 into whatever they want it to be. That's what I did with my '02 and my '06 and I have no doubt that enthusiasts will continue to use this route to achieve whatever satisfaction they're searching for.

 

The Miata has changed Dramatically since 1990, and yes, there are still people who cling to the first gen Miatas as 'better' than the NB and NC cars. However, most would say that the Miata is just as much an enthusiast car as ever, even with the new folding hardtop coming.

I hardly think the the BMW 335i is watered down, actually I was looking at one at the dealer last week and it is incredible, but way too expensive. Also remember BMW is positioning the 3 series up the ladder a bit so that the 1 series can come over and be priced between the 3 and MINI.

As far as it being engineered to be more profitable for BMW, well, of course! There has been wide speculation that they were not making much if any on the R50/53s, and I'd prefer them to be profitable so that they can keep making incredible cars.

As for the GTI reference, each generation of GTI (up to the current car) was bigger, heavier, slower, and handled with less agility than the previous one. Yeah, the MINI grew 2 or 3 inches in length, but maintained all other dimensions, lost weight, and from the reviews I've read, is of better quality and handles better.

There are always a small subset of people who will say 'new is bad' with everything, regardless of what the car actually is like.

I'm just going to go test drive one with the options I think I'll want, and see for myself. For now, the reviews (and I really trust the MINI2 review) are incredibly positive.

 

Well said. Us future R56 owners are looking forward to joining current enthusiasts at events like MotD, AMVIV, future MTTS, and others. I don't know why anyone would say the R56 doesn't have a soul; it has multi-color interior lighting - if that isn't soul, I don't know what is.

 

I wish I cared. If you don't want people making their opinions known on your own thoughts, don't post. Yes, it's that simple.

 

MINI HAS to turn mainstream. Do you really think they care about 2% of the buying population vice the other 140,000 owners out there?

BMW is a business. They need to make money to survive. You don't make business decision based on a small percentage of the population. You make sound business decision on what the MASSES want ...

That might sound harsh but your not talking about a marquee like Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc. Your talking about a company that sold 1,000,000 MINIs. Small marquees that focus on sportscars DO cater to the enthusiasts need and IGNORE the mass needs.

I'll give you ONE example. Porsche refused to put cup holders in any car for years. WHY? Sports car drivers don't need no stinking cup holders (I'm serious). Finally they relented but very common items like satellite radio, Ipod aux, BT, etc are "luxaries" not part of the driving experience and you will not find any (except for satellite in their SUV).

A company like that can do that. MINI cannot. It must have cupholders, integrated BT, Sirius Radio, aux adapters for Ipod, etc simply because the "masses" won't buy it otherwise. On the other hand, a small car maker does not. However, it DOES listen to performance issues because that is what its all about.

 

Soul in a car isn't its good or bad attributes. Soul depends upon whether the car 'speaks' to you. Soul is the relationship between the particular car and the particular driver. Some of my cars had soul, many didn't. Not all drivers are even attuned to it. If they're not, then a car that could've had soul to one driver, if they had happened to purchase it, may not to the other.

My first car had soul. I could feel it in the way its gearshift in my hand move through its patterns. I would get in and close the door and I could feel it sigh as I settled in. Moving down the road in that car all was right with the world. I wish I still had it, but youth and carelessness made that impossible.

 

I disagree. I've said that I know that if the R56 was the car that I saw in 2002, I would not have fallen for it the way I fell for the R50.

 

Chows- guess you missed the part where you insert your SIM card into the satnav on the 911 and the whole car becomes your cell phone. And how many MINI owners are ditching their Super-Duper-Quadruple-Extra Large cup holders for a cleaner cockpit? And before that was added there was no shortage of a waiting list for the car.

MINI says its focus is on the enthusiast, I think they will lose a portion of that crowd with the changes going into the R56. It will be a wonderful car no doubt but it's not going to be for everybody. There will be those who *gasp* aren't a fan of it, because the have greater appreciation for other characteristics.

Its like the MCSa, its still a fun car, but personally a week of daily driving in one is enough for me, I'd rather have my manual. I'm not promoting bashing of the new car and I'm very understanding of each to his/her own. For me I much prefer the R53, fundamentally and based on what I've learned abut the engineering, I'll comment on the behind the wheel experience after I drive one for myself. I know some here will prefer the R56 and that's their choice, and its different than mine and thats OK.

Would it be such a crime for there to be thise who prefer the R53 over the R56?

And it takes it a step away from the performance and character of the vehicle to be more accomidating. Perhaps you missed it; I did say I think that BMW did what they had to do to keep the brand alive. (it's also in bold red letters in my previous post) and in doing so a chunk of that 2% (your # not mine) will be alienated, its a fact of life; it doesn't mean that the MINI community is going to fall apart, and who knows you may see a club called "justaR53" down the road. I don't think that a Cooper/Cooper S differance has destroyed the community nor do I think a R50/53/53 vs R56 will destroy it ethier.

 

Totally different thought.

First, they are built primarily for the European market. GSM is prevalent and ubiquitous. Their NAV over there also get the built in traffic. US does not. Virtually nobody buys that option (way too expensive when cell phones are free).

As to the MINI remark. Sure they built the GP. He said that. So the "enthusiast" gets their car and they will build JCWs.

However, the vast majority of "enthusiasts" here call JCW CRAP. What MINI thinks is enthusiasts is NOT what the minority (in terms of total MINI owners) think is performance.

Many ppl hated the MC40 ... no JCW. Many ppl hated the GP. a couple more HP ... big deal. They were all expecting huge HP gains.

The point is, for MINI to stay in business, it MUST sell to the mainstream American ... the one who doesn't read MINI2 nor NAM. The one who could care less about a car club. The Silent Majority who just by a car as a car. THAT is where the real money is and THAT is why they have to go mainstream.

 

If you were to substitute 356 and 911 for R 53 and R56 you would have heard the same discussion about 40 years ago .Now 356 is just a memory and the 911 series is still with us.The good news is we will always have a choice about how to spend our money. Q