Not that I don't understand - its just that it is too open ended and people can easily take it the wrong way. It does not serve the discussion, not like the vastly more engaging and substantive post you just made.

 

I can't say that I found this area on the old design particularly beautiful - retro perhaps - I mean it looks like it came straight off an E-type. But in any case the new treatment here is most definitely a common solution - generic if you will. But what are some other solutions for this on other cars - given we won't be seeing anything that could snag a pedestrian again?

 

This detail does not bother me, but it does intrigue me. There seems to be the assumption that its a quality control issue - the gap is too big. I don't think that is it - it seems quite deliberate to me, and very consistent on all the R56s I've seen. I'd love to hear the designers comment on that move.

You recognize that there was a change from the black flare rising with the lifted hood, to the hood breaking at the flare in the R56. This removed two joint line breaks from the flare surface which to me is a great improvement.

 

I agree with you here - the black treatment is an homage to the glass corner R50/53. If they had even provided a build option to order that panel in the body color it would have been a great element that let the R56 step out on its own and set its own course, one with great inspiration from the original.

thats enough from me for now - great stuff though Homme, thanks

 

I'm hoping for some solution to the side repeater, too.

Interesting list Homme. "Likes" in particular. Not the usual R50/53 owner's list, y'know? Cool to see with a fresh set of eyes.

As far as hood gap goes... check out www.MINI2.com

There is a whole thread about this which reveals THE HOOD GAP IS ADJUSTABLE http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-e...heel-arch.html!!! Sounds like you can crank it in a bit to minimize the initial build/shipping/service factory gap. So there may be a solution to at least minimize it somewhat.

 

msh
I read that thread at MINI2 earlier and from what I gather the early UK builds had a wide gap (maybe the gaps evidenced in most of the photos) but that they have retooled to minimize this "inperfection" on Dec builds. I'd like to see what we get on this side of the pond. I hope to see some shots from Detroit to see if there is a marked improvement.
That "flaw" seems like a design mistake to me from the start. Especially since it appears to me that the apex of the curve is the place where the fit is the least snug. On the lower (base) of the curves the fit seems right. I've looked at many photos and it just seems to me that the ellipse angle was incorrect. Looking at it I couldn't see how a post production tweek could easily or fully fix it.
Thanks Homme for helping to turn this thead back on track.
Motor ON!!!

 

Here are some detroit images - do you see the gap?

 

Other cars do exactly the same thing; stop the hood short, barely recess the wiper blades and fit vents in between. Where the R53 presented the wiper blades and their connections for all to see (and for all to be bruised by) the new one pretends they're not even there. I just think they could have done this nicer, more ingeniously.

 

Um, I keep seeing references to the "side repeater." What is it, anyway?

 

The small light on the sides of the front fender that flashes in conjunction with the turn signals.

The gripe (primarily, at least) is the change in the plastic housing surrounding the light itself. Black plasitic on the Cooper... Chromed plastic on the Cooper S.

I do. But it's less pronounced than some of the earlier images. Though I love the R56 as a total product, this is one of the small features that stands out to me. I don't know if you would want it that much tighter though, since the moving part coming down over the (now) fixed fenders has to allow for some flex ("overslam", I think it was called somewhere).

I went for a darker color hoping it would hide this a little.

 

Here is an extreme example (pic1) of the gap from an early UK car. The Detroit Auto Show examples show a slight gap which seems fine to me -- I guess I won't be turning the car down!

 

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homme makes a point i have been disturbed about since my first view of the redesign. i will miss the sheet metal adjacent to the bonnet/hood. now we will have an ugly plastic tray, (like every other car on the road...) suitable to not much more than collecting road debris and dead leaves. i can't believe that this was the ONLY solution that could have been come to-- its not reasonable. assign this task to a team of current auto design students, and i wonder what they could come up with?

soon after the (new) mini's initial release, (and its immediate [sales] success), bmw had examined the stats and clearly indicated that a primary goal needed to be "cutting costs without reducing percieved build quality" (quote from an online article). it is not naive of me, (as has been asserted in this thread), to connect this issue with the re-design. cost reduction was part of the agenda anyway, and i cringe every time that is made as an "excuse" for some clumsy or pedestrian (no pun intended!) design work.

my point has always been, simply, that the cost cutting, in many cases, shows. the wrap around glass is no longer one piece, and if anyone here can make the argument that replacing it with a seam-- and breaking it into two smaller pieces-- (which makes it look not much different than, for example, the glass treatment of the scion xa-- a pretty good "imitation mini," i would add), does not look "cheaper"-- than i'd like to hear it. THAT is my point. it is reasonable, for example, for posters here to complain about "gaps" at the wheelarches and other details, which the r53 does not suffer from. this kind of stuff, we just don't want to see.

i also believe that it is not nutty, mean-spirited, or represent a desire to exclude buyers/posters, to be complaining about details which make the mini more "conventional." it's just that certain posters here and within other threads are vocalizing thier affection for the mini and disappointed, that's all. i also feel that to initiate a discussion about "design" and then desire to eliminate discussion about "emotion" or "history" or "british-ness" (or whatever!)-- isn't reasonable, since those factors are married and provide insight into posters' opinions, to bmw's motivations, to the auto industry as a whole, and to a myriad of factors which influence both bmw and the decision (we) all made to purchase! otherwise, what would you have here? a few opinions arguing about whether the new taillights are beautiful or ugly? i guess this thread would perhaps be finished long ago?

i do not like the redesign, perhaps, not at all. too many of the changes i saw in my '05 from my '02 i disliked intensely. my current model, simply put, does not look as good, and i would even say that some of the changes (such as the rearview mirror) were stupid and/or dangerous changes. i do NOT, however, feel that the r56 is some sort of ugly car, or that it betrays the mini brand, and all that. i am obsessed with the checkered motif, and when i see the checkered dash for the 2007, how long can i hold out?!! i KNOW where i am headed here!

 

I have the same experience with the wiper recess on other cars - we have lots of trees on our lot and these constantly collect leaves, pine needles, and anything else that drops on the car. Eventually I get little pockets of composted top soil forming in the recesses. Its something you have to constantly maintain.

I've never seen another solution. That's why I ask - have you seen something better on another car? Aside from the old fashioned configuration which we apparently can no longer have?

But how can I fault Mini/BMW? Were they supposed to be the ones that solved this when the entire industry has the issue. Its like complaining because I can't run leaded fuel in the car..

The last car I had that resolved the window/hood/wipers the way the R50/53 did was a 1969 Chevy Nova (handed down from my grandfather - no old man jokes please). So while I have a problem with the dirt collector from my newer cars, I also feel that this treatment looks hopelessly old fashioned, retro, whatever, it feels out of place to me.

 

I just returned from NAIAS 07 and am sad to report that the R56, IMDO, is a big let down. I didn't want to believe all the pictures and statistics but had high hopes that in person, the new version would dispell my pessimism. Now, I'm even more happy than ever that I own the R53...inspite of the more capable chassis/motor combination of the R56. Here's why...


Gaps, Gaps everywhere! In these days where shut lines are measured in millimeters (4mm is golden), the R56 displayed gaps much larger than the R53! Seen from rear 3/4, even the headlamp assembly is visible through the shut line...or should I say shut chasm? This is roughly 10+mm. Although it is not as noticible from a distance due to the color/material change. However, if you guys have any ambitions of painting your fender lips...watch out! You're in for a sorry surprise...that gap will jump out at you and it will not match the gaps in front and rear of the bonnet shut line.



The photographs you've seen of the headlamp gaps are also deceiving! Up close you see an astonoshing (albeit even) 10mm gap between the headlamp assembly and the trim ring which reside on the seperate bonnet. Not surprising due to the overslam gap requirement to prevent interference. Don't be surprised to find small birds wedged in there after a long trip!



This is only one of many examples of heavy handed execution of something that was already well done on the R53...Thick, dull cheap looking black plastic trim which houses the side repeater now has no resemblance of it's original function...a vent!



Another shot of the bonnet shut line...8-10mm wide. Another strange application of the fender reflector is it's strange location which now straddle the break line. I thought maybe there is also a sympathetic line in the reflector but that's not the case. They're flat! What were they thinking?




I stopped taking pictures after examing the rest of the details. The bonnet surfaces has lost so much of the "sexy" curves and is much flatter. It has distinctly lost the voluptuous surface vocabulary of the R53. The rest of the surface reflects the same level of execution. Good but not better than what it replaced...

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying it's an awful design. As an exterior designer, I can't help but determine that this is not a step forward for the MINI. Shame, as I'm sure it will be a blast to drive...

 

This is why I state earlier that the larger gap appears to be too consistent to be a defect, but rather a deliberate design decision. I am curious about what would be behind it - more clearance for the various surfaces that must come together - flares and lights? OR was it a decision to deliberately emphasize the hood panel. A clue is that it appears that if the gap was closed to the 4mm you mention, then the top trim would not align. Even more telling is the space around the headlight - that has to be deliberate because if it was misaligned the opposite side would be tight.

I think it is deliberate, and have no problem with it. Do you feel it looks like the hood is not closed all the way or something?

In comparison are you not bothered by the bonnet line crossing over the wheel flare in two places on the R53? This seems really clumsy to me, as the two elements beg to be separate (by a gap perhaps) yet here the joint crosses over these two different elements. The effect reminds me of wallpapering a door with a false wainscot. Or perhaps more relevant, the front grill crossing over to the bumper.

 

The gaps are wide due to what we call "overslam" requirements. When two panel meet vertically where one is fix and one is not, a given amount of gap is required for seal compression and compensation for heavy handed slammers. To give them credit, the gaps around the headlamp and fenders are concealed cleverly by optical illusion and taking advantage of the shadow effect and reflections of the chrome ring. In it's current black trim state, the shadow hides part of the real gap from a distance while the chrome ring dilutes where the real edge is. Once someone decides to paint the trim ring and the fender trim, the gaps will become visually unacceptable...

As to the two lines crossing the R53 fenders, I'm not as bothered because of their relative tight gap control

 

Is seal compression an issue with a bonnet when you have a tight latch? I understand that on a rear hatch, but is the bonnet "sealed" - its open to the air via the grill and below, no?

 

The rear hatch's closure is such that it does not have an edge meeting edge...it's hard to explain without an illustration. The bonnet closing edge is best illustrated by looking at older American cars where the hood meet the bumper or headlamps...you'll usually see an excessive gap created for this area...

In the case of the R53, this gap is concealed between the gap of the bonnet and bumper where larger than normal spacing is accepted as norm...MINI's decision to secure the headlamp to the chassis creates another situation in which side to side movements also needs to be accomodated by a large gap...as a general rule, anytime you have a hood that meets a fixed headlamp, large gaps are necessary...the Japanese and Europeans have generally done a better job of this than domestic but that's not the case anymore with more attention being paid to "perceived quality". I thought BMW would be able to do this better but I guess not...

 

I did not mean the Mini's hatch, but just generally. But I have seen the differentiated gap that you describe at the front of cars many times.

So its a design decision - by having the bonnet wrap over to the sides they were going to have to work to a larger gap at this line. The R53 does not have the gap because the bonnet includes the wheel flare, but of course it gains the two panel joints across the flare. I suppose they could have made a more conventional hood with separate fender panels, but I would guess that would have been even less popular!

Design always involves a series of compromises. Obviously they could have handled it the same way as the R53, but somebody somewhere decided this was better, and I have to agree. I think they've done well.

 

As you already know being a designer...Design is subjective and it's all in the eye of the beholder...so we'll have to agree to disagree

 

Msfitoy --Thanks for your input.
I'm even more concerned then I was. The gaps regardless of their mechanical reason seem like a problem looking for a solution not an solution.
I'm starting to think this bird ain't cooked yet.

 

I wouldn't kick her out of bed, but I wouldn't trade my R53 for her either...

 

I was hoping to buy a '08 MCS. However, my 13 year old Accord, that I was hoping would last another year, had some issues that cost way too much to repair last Thursday. So I bought a Hyper Blue/Silver Roof & Bonnet striped MCS with the premium package, H/K stereo, fog lights, and 17" S rims on Friday . I'm loving it, and will buy a 2010 MCS when this one is paid off. I'm away from home on business for the next few weeks, so my wife is having all of the fun. I'll have to perform some catch-up motoring when I get back. Wish me luck...Z

 

Congrats! You'll love that car - really.