Given that you don't have a choice, I would buy the DTC again. The open differential without the DTC is a real pain. On the track, heat handling is largely a function of the pads and the fluid. I would not run anything but a real race pad on the track. The stock brakes with race pads and brake fluid will handle the EDLC (eLSD) without too much issue unless you are a high level, aggressive driver. But, you will probably find that system will chew up brake pads and rotors. As I said in my post above from last December, a lot of my driving is at WGI. Turn 7 at that track is a tight, uphill, right turn, corkscrew which is really tough to take without spinning the right front wheel. On that track I ate up a set of race pads on the right side wheel in 2 days and destroyed that rotor in about 4 days. And this was on Wilwood 12.2" BBK.

The problem is that BMW has taken away the choices for the enthusiast, probably to cut costs. The DTC is great for the street, but it is no replacement for a mechanical LSD for the track or autoX, but it is better than nothing. I have had to adjusted my driving to save the brakes which mean I have to drive slower, which is disappointing. Also, this is not just an issue for the MINI it is the same for the BMWs and people have started to post concerns for those cars too.

Sorry if this is a little "down". I still really like the MINI I have and have a lot of fun driving it. I can't imagine having another car. While a Ford Focus ST might be good option as an alternative, its a "Ford" fourdoor

 

Thanks for the input - I'm more or less pretty sure Im gonna go with it, just getting more info. I guess what someone said about DTC kicking back on in extreme situations was just a fluke/rumor/idk?

 

guess I need to look more into this. I have a 07 MCS with DSC button. I've never really played around with it. I have seen the traction warning flash at me taking a 90 degree turn at 30-35 (oops!).
What do y'all do for normal everyday driving? Leave it alone or turn off? Not sure if mine has the other DTC (traction) option.

 

I *think* 07+ didn't have DTC, just DSC. Could be wrong though

 

Not necessarily. See this thread:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...any-ideas.html

 

right - i commented in that thread. the actual cut power/limit throttle seemed like an isolated incident with Oasis's Mini - the rest are just talking about brake applied/wheel spin or not etc from the EDLC

 

I'm quite happy to leave the DSC to do its thing on the street. The statistics are quite compelling, like you're half as likely to die in a single vehicle accident if equipped with stability control.

For the 07 especially, it was very forgiving, I could provoke a lot of wheel spin before it would do anything. The 07 was sometimes faster at autocross when I forgot to turn it off. The later MINIs seem a little more sensitive, but I've still hardly ever noticed it doing its thing, except for the light flashing at me.

 

"The statistics are quite compelling, like you're half as likely to die in a single vehicle accident if equipped with stability control."

Do you have a source for that statistic?

 

Nevermind, I found it.

Despite the fact that the NHTSA finds no statistically significant reduction in single vehicle car crashes with electronic control stability, they would have us believe that there is a 55% reduction in fatalities presumed to be exclusively due to the presence of ESC.

Let's keep in mind that 35% of these unfortunate souls are impaired by alcohol and many of the rest can't reliably hit the brake instead of the throttle in an emergency before claiming it applies to everyone.

The first thing my uncle said to me when I was learning to drive was to take my feet off the pedals in an emergency*. I guess ESC does it for you so you don't hit so hard when you run off the road.

*I have always preferred the advice of never giving up trying to save the car. ESC is not compatible.

 

I deeply regret to observe that having autocrossed with DSC, and with the R53 equivalent, and now with DTC, that stability control has never spared a single cone.

Oh the horror!

Cheers,

Charlie

Ps: I drive all the time with DSC off, for the simple reason that there are moment where quick acceleration is the safest option - and the uncertainty of a power cut or other automated override is just not something I can deal with... The other reason is I am an old fart with a respect for deep and consistent habits, and now that I always go from the Start to the magic button I am spared the occasional wasted run where I have to do a dork slap as I cross the starting lights...

 

This one looks good to me. I'm not sure its the same one I was thinking of: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810794.pdf

I was remembering a study which showed a certain reduction in the frequency of single vehicle accidents, and a reduction in the resultant fatalities of single vehicle accidents, the result of the two statistics seemed to be you had half the chance of dieing in a single vehicle accident.

Why is it not statistically significant (bering in mind statistics is not a strong point for me.)

 

Because it is within the range of natural variability. It is a mathematical test of the data. The study disapoints badly because it does not explain what mechanism could cause the reduction in crashes to be insignificant but the reduction in fatalities to be higher and significant. For something like airbags which only affect survivability it would make sense, but why ecs?

Are you doing the slush series this year?

 

I understand the general concept, but I don't see where is says its not significant. I don't know how to interpret Chi squared values.A study like that isn't trying to explain, just to show the correlations. Theorising the mechanisms would weaken the study. It makes sense to me, with ESC you're less likely to get out of shape in the first place, and if you do it helps mitigate the results.We're planning on it. The plan is to enter in STF while developing the new car to next years Street rules. (If the wheels I ordered ever arrived.)

 

Personally I will always run with traction control turned on for the street and the track. On the track I have seen cases where it would have saved the cars from being wrecked. I have had it help me out several times and have been thankful for it. On the track I run with it in what the manual calls "traction" mode (one quick press of the button) and it doesn't interfere with my driving. AutoX is another story. There it will interfere and I run with it full off.

 

Btwyx,
The 2007 study was updated in 2010. But even the original you linked says:

"OVERALL CRASH REDUCTION
• ESC reduced all crash involvements by the following percentages:
Crash reduction by ESC (%)
Cars LTVs
All fatal crash involvements 14 28
All police-reported crash involvements 8 10
• Only the reduction in fatal crash involvements in passenger cars is not statistically
significant."

If you are less likely to get out of shape with ESC then you ought to have fewer accidents, yes? Well, the 2007 study says so, but the reduction in accidents in the 2010 update is not statistically significant although the reduction in deaths is. That suggests the reductions in deaths may be for additional reasons beyond ESC. And they aren't simply correlating esc on or off as they don't have the data to do that. They are comparing statistics of older cars which didn't have esc with newer cars that have it as standard. Deaths were trending down before esc was ever mandated.

When Congress reduced the national speed limit to 55mph to save gas the NHTSA went to great lengths to claim corresponding reductions in deaths were due to slower speeds. Eventually, they changed their measurement from deaths per year to deaths per miles driven to elimate the effect of people driving less during the gas crisis. And completely contrary to their predictions deaths per mile did not go up when the 55 mph national limit was lifted, but continued to go down as they constantly do.

We're talking about politicians here, not scientists. A temperate amount of skepticism is in order. In California they reformulated gasoline to reduce emissions while ignoring the fact that they had also reduced mpg's and had actually increased emissions per mile driven. So it goes.

I have no problem with ESC so long as it can be turned off. However, with this kind of exuberant overclaiming, eliminating the ability to turn it off may be the followup agenda to getting it on every vehicle sold in the US.

 

Not bad advice for ice and snow, eh?

A chassis engineer once explained what they commonly see as driver reaction to extreme conditions. Most drivers drive only within the linear part of the steering curve - that is, if they turn the steering wheel twice as far, the car turns twice as tightly. They have absolutely no experience of the non-linear part of the steering curve where how tight the car turns is not constantly related to how much the steering wheel is turned.

Consequently when they experience something like fully-developed understeer, for example by panic braking while turning, and the car no longer behaves linearly, they conclude that the car has 'broken' and that they have lost control. This triggers something the chassis guys call 'control abdication' where, since the car is broken, the driver gives up trying to control it and waits for the crash.

And let's be realistic - what percentage of drivers can actually deal with a skid? My suspicion is that US figures might be higher than here in the UK, as many US drivers get decent snow experience where things happen slow enough for many drivers to learn car control.

 

Dear good sir;

You severely overestimate the driving public of North America.

Sincerely;

A driver from North America.

That said, I enjoy snow driving.. But every winter, at the first snow it's a mess. EVERYONE seems to forget how to drive. Thankfully more and more people just stay off the roads.

 

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Have you guys with EDLC only on noticed anything like the Mini trying to brake both wheels during a launch/wheel spin situation? or same for in the snow with just EDLC on?

I think as far as EDLC on the track for the BASE cooper, I may be overthinking things. It'll only activate if the inside wheel is spinning, correct? I don't know that the base cooper can produce enough torque to actually spin the inside wheel at track speeds. It would for auto-x, which will be a help if anything. Hopefully the programming is solid enough not to hinder anything else though

 

"the Electronic Differential Lock Control (EDLC) system will kick in if needed to help maintain traction and prevent the inside wheel from spinning during very aggressive cornering and acceleration." MINIUSA.COM

 

I actually had wheelspin off the line yesterday, which was a pleasant surprise. Hoosier A6 at 55 degrees with the fog clearing and a cool runway.

I've never felt the car bog or hesitate however - and as noted elsewhere I run "DSC Off" and do have the DTC feature on the car.

I used to launch the R53 with the Quaife pretty hard and spin both wheels for a few feet until the car speed and revs matched, and the R56 has required me to change this approach. Yesterday was the first time I felt like the new Gollum reminded me of the old one.

Seems to work pretty well, all in all.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

interesting - i guess as long as my launch/start of the event are fairly straight i should be okay

 

It doesn't matter if it straight or curved, the EDLC won't slow you down. In the snow, the EDLC will let both wheels spin. All of our autocross start with a running start on a curve and the EDLC will just launch the car. I have run an open dif in a MINI and can tell you that there is no comparison, the EDLC just romps over the open dif. And I have gotten just a little more than just a little wheelspin coming off the line

 

Gotcha - keep in mind I ordered the base Cooper, but regardless the same should still apply