We played around with the DTC at NeDivs last weekend and it was a bit of a mixed bag. I feel like it helped us get out of the several long sweepers since it would keep the inside wheelspin/understeer down on the exits. I did experience the hard power cut once when I stomped on it trying to get out of the 1 slow section. It didn't totally blow the run but it was annoying while it lasted.

I wouldn't rule it out as useful for a Justa, but, anecdotally it seems like it is too aggressive on a S.

 

So that I'm clear in my head... this is accomplished by press/ hold the DSC button (closest to passenger side)?

 

That is correct, to turn everything off (except the eLSD) press and hold the DSC button. The yellow warning light will turn on to show that it is off.

 

I managed to figure it out before reading this post.
Got the car to break loose a bit getting around on my way to the freeway. Time for an H-Sport sway bar!

 

So feeling a little off here.

I have a DTC button but not a DSC button. Which is more important? Are they mutually exclusive?

 

DTC is an option for the Mini and it is an extension of DSC. DTC has everything that DSC has and more. Depending on what you are doing DTC is more important. If you live in snow country, you want DTC although that is not an absolute. It is just very helpful in the snow as it will help with not skidding out. It has electronic limited slip which helps the car to get around corners without spinning the inside tire. It has an intermediate mode called "traction" which is really good for agressive driving or situations where you need to spin the tires a little without killing power too much. Both DSC and DTC can be turned off all together, except with DTC the eLSD cannot be turned off (no reason I can think of to want to turn that off).

For autocross, neither DTC nor DSC are helpful. They both cut power too much. Best to run autocross with them totally off. However, on the track DTC on the intermediate setting is great for the track (just finished 2 track days using it). It is helpful without being obtrusive. When it does come on, it it an indication that you have done something that you could have done better. But it is there for when you really screw something up and that may be the difference between hitting a guardrail and staying on the track. For any driver, this could come in handy. I found that by the end of the send day it was not coming on at all and I had some of my fastest times.

 

I've now had a couple of track days to experiment with DTC and EDLC.

DTC is a lot less intrusive than DSC. Most of the time with DTC on, I could feel its interventions as slight hesitations. Though when I got really enthusiastic, I could feel it holding me back in certain corners.

With DTC off (only EDLC), I couldn't feel any intervention at all. I could provoke plenty of wheelspin, I'm not entirely sure if that's one or 2 wheels spinning.

 

Some people just dont read their manuals. DTC also includes DSC. Also DTC/DSC is not an elsd. Wait till it snows athen goto an open p-lot and experiment. Say if you launch with dtc on it will apply counter brake to the spinning wheel to act as an lsd. So hard to explain but just read the manual and experiment for yourself.

 

One button makes you larger, and the other makes you small...
And the one that Mini gives you, doesn't do anything at all...

Go ask Alice?

Cheers,

Charlie

(electronic lsd - what will they think of next?)

 

 

It'll be a long wait for some snow around here. You seem to be contradicting yourself, you say its not an elsd, then say it is an lsd. That's what the manual says "Interventions (differential lock) in braking occur ... when drive wheels are rotating unevenly"

 

Just got our first snow here. One of those nasty 1/2" snow falls that coats the road just enough to make it as slick as an ice rink, at least in the all season tires that are still on the car. I have a park close by that has some nice slow speed sweepers and some sharp turns. This was perfect to experiment a little more with the DTC. I left if full on and tried some on-the-gas and off-the-gas speed changes in some of the turns.

On the gas, the front wheels would spin a little and the car would push wide on the turn. The DTC would kick in to help control things and a little more steering input would make the DTC be more aggressive. Off the gas in a corner would bring the back end out. It was clear that if the DTC didn't kick in the car would have spun pretty easily. As it was, with some steering correction the car came back on line. It also seemed better to keep the gas on while the DTC is doing its thing. The DTC will cut the power as it needs to. If you don't have the power on, then drag of the front wheels makes it harder for the DTC to correct things.

What was also clear was that there is a fine line between going fast enough to get into trouble and the DTC helps you out and going too fast for even the DTC to correct things. As always, the driver still needs to be very aware of the conditions and speeds they are going.

Translating all of this to the track, I am still convinced that it is best to leave the DTC on. The accidents that I have personally seen involved the back end coming around in a corner and it seems that the DTC would have definitely helped with those.

 

Reminds me of last January when we went up to Montreal in the SAAB 9-3 Sport Combi to attend the local 'We Are SAAB' event. Including some partial laps on the iced Circuit Gilles Villenueve F1. Was following one of the rare XWD cars and had set up a nice 4 wheel drift (Nilsa was freaking) to accelerate out of a turn when the car would not respond to the throttle. Doh. Forgot to turn off the traction control.

 

Having now driven Sonoma (aka Infineon) with a DTC equipped car, I was faster with the system in DTC mode, rather than in EDLC mode. I'm not sure if that's the system helping me or my cold was catching upto me during the afternoon sessions when I switched DTC off.

DTC mode worked pretty good at Sonoma, it didn't feel that intrusive. In EDLC mode I could get plenty of wheelspin at turn 11, but I think it was 2 wheel spin, not 1 wheel spin.

In DTC mode (and only DTC mode), I'd also get the feeling of the car swinging back and forth. I think that was the DTC and my driving fighting each other. It happened quite a bit at turn 2 (off camber right hander up a hill), I'd feel the car sliding into oversteer, I'd correct then I'd feel it swing the other way a bit. I'm in the middle feeling right, left, forward. It feels a bit weird.

 

I think that may have been what I felt going around one particular corner one day. The car started understeering, then transitioned to oversteer, then transitioned back to understeer. All apparently on its own; I was modulating the throttle but not enough (I thought!) to do that. I also didn't look down at the tach to see if the TC light was blinking at me.

If I ever do take my MINI out to play on the track, I will probably turn the TC off. I would like to be the one in control of the car, not the computer. Of course, none of my other cars (including the one I took on the track) had any kind of driver aids, so....

 

i asked a buddy that races porsches what he knew about dsc/dtc/elsd, he did not know about the bmw/mini system, but called a friend of his that works for bmw racing, this was the reply:

there is only 1 stability program present in the mini

the button that cycles you from dsc to dtc to off is changing thresholds at which the program steps in and how agressively it intervenes, but it is the same program running at all times

THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT CAME UP WITH THE DSC/DTC/ELSD NAMES

the abs is part of the same system, but it is always active, same goes for the Cornering Brake Control (CBC), Electronic brake-force distribution (EBV), Brake Assist and Hill Assist

the ALL4 all-wheel drive system is part of the same program

it is the same marketing department that made the dsc or dtc buttons an extra cost option on some models and standard on others

scott

 

We've been having a series of rather serious rain storms. Today I ran through a small pile of wet leaves with the right tire and DSC cut the engine. Not nice. I can see why DTC could be better on snow as suggested by the operator's manual.

 

The idea that DSC/DTC are two different parameterizations of the same program fits with the descriptions in the manual: DSC seems like general-purpose traction (forward) and stability (lateral) control; DTC seems specialized for traction (as when going straight through deep snow or up a slippery hill).

 

So, if I do not have DTC, it seems that it should be only a reflash away?

 

You might not have the light come on when the DTC intervenes if the intervention is short. In the snow I found that the light came on after a several seconds of intervention. I have noticed this on the track too.

I had a situation on the track that would have been helped greatly by the DTC. Unfortunately the '07 didn't have it and I now have a 2012. Because of that, on the track I will run always the car with it on. As I have noted, I have found the intervention in "traction" mode to be unobtrusive on the track. This includes the nasty cork screw of a turn called the "toe" at Watkins Glen. This is an uphill, 180 deg right hander that is hard for a MINI to take. If nothing else it is hard to get good traction on this turn. The 2012 takes the turn much better than the '07 ever could.

However, the one thing I do wonder is what is the amount of added stress the eLSD puts on the brakes. I ask this as I had brake problems at Watkins Glen that I don't remember having with the same pads and brake fluid I used on the '07.

 

i think this thread has more or less convinced me to go with the DTC/EDLC

when you guys autox with EDLC only on, and you are using the throttle around slaloms, will it intervene at all?

 

anyone have any road course experience with these as well?

 

I decline to answer as I do not hold a competition license, and respect the Fifth Amendment...

We know there are folks that can answer - are they looking? I can think of a few Justas that see HPDE use frequently...

 

i'm just trying to see if they have any issues with brakes overheating on a track as opposed to autox, something i should consider.

 

The JCW's brakes get a bit hot on track, but I don't think its the EDLC doing that, just that they've got about 80% more energy to dissipate than the JustaCooper. I haven't taken the JustaCooper with the EDLC out on track yet.