HEAR HEAR!!! Everybody buy your wife dinner!! (Oh, wait...my husband doesn't read crazy Mini threads...)

 

I'm no mechanic but I will say Thank you! I was waiting for someone to say that. You also understand the fine art of compromise in a relationship...LOL!!

 

I have a 2007 MCS 6 speed. By far the best mileage I’ve gotten was in an area with lots of long hills. I went at a moderate speed up the hills and coasted down using engine braking only when I had to slow the car. I kept up my momentum going down so as to minimize the fuel used to get up the next hill. I usually get about 30-32 MPG but I got over 45 MPG that day driving in cheapskate mode.

 

It's pretty interesting that there's whole schools of shifting theory. Apparently I'm in the block shifting school (though more for upshifting, when coasting to a stop light/sign I am *gasp* a 'coaster'). When getting on the highway I tend to stay in 3rd or 4th until I've reached cruising speed and then go directly to 6th.

In Driver's Ed in the US you're lucky if they even acknowledge the existence of manual transmissions.

 

Didnt see a lot of productive feedback on the electrical system statement so I'll throw my .02 cents in.

If you go to start your car, and every accessory is in the on position, your battery cannot tell the difference due to solenoids. The solenoid will delay any power consumption being immediately pulled from the battery until the car reads 14.4 volts coming accross the lines. Some of you will say when you first turn your car key to the on position before temporarily moving it to the start position, the accessories will draw from the battery, and that part is true, but during the starting phase, the accessories all momentarily shut off until the 14 volts are detected, then they come back on. So.........your actually hurting the accessories life span due to an increased cyclic life rate, but thats another story.

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY: you should always turn off your A/C before shutting your car off and let the compressor spin down and the oil return to the bearings before killing the engine, avoids dry starts for the compressor.

Oh.....what do you mean a steak dinner bet? Aren't you married? That means same checking account don't it? So who cares who pays....

 

1. Coasting will save you gas compared to downshifting, although I can't quantify the difference.

2. This nonsense about scared passengers and bad practice of coasting resulting in being ill-prepared for emergencies ... get real, the original poster wasn't discussing coasting on a track or mountain passes ... in city driving there is nothing wrong with coasting. There is plenty of time to react to any potential "danger" that may arise by clutching in and shifting into an appropriate gear ... that argument can better hold water against the use of the start/stop feature ... the last thing I'd want is to be stopped at a light and wait for the engine to restart as an 18-wheeler is running up my rear. Redirect your fears and concerns there.

 

'callahan', I can understand how you'd wanna slap her but in this case maybe you should slap the daddy too ... I detest people who make claims ignorantly.

 

 

I do not agree with your post, sorry.

Every single advance driving class will absolutely berate you for coasting in neutral, every single one without fail, it is considered to be an extremely bad habit as it reduces the level of control that you have over the vehicle while you are traveling at speed. You are reducing your cornering ability and you are reducing your engine braking potential.

Next up you are significantly impacting, or really removing, you ability to 'gas the car out of harms way'.

In my opinion it is a potentially dangerous habit.


Stop-Start has been around in Europe for a very long time, VW had Formel-E cars in the 80's that cut ignition after being stopped for a while, there where concerns about just that situation but as far as I am aware no reports of it actually happening - as soon as you hit the clutch or the gas pedal the engine would start and it really was 'instantly' so even in that hypothetical situation there would be no real difference - ie you still had to find the gear you wanted.

Besides, how much time does the average (extremely unaware) driver spend looking in the mirrors when stopped at the lights ?

 

Accessories in cars are either powered by:

Battery
Ignition (On)
Ignition (Start)

Most companies will call them something different but the concept is the same. Battery means as longs as the battery has power. Ignition On means when the ignition is on, but not cranking the starter. Ignition Start is while cranking the starter.

There are many items that are powered from Battery. Most of them have a time-out though, such as headlights, memory seats, some "smart" seatbelt retractors, etc. These run as long as there is battery power, but often run in a power-saving state waiting for an input (door unlocking, opening, etc). Your auto door locks are a good example. A receiver ALWAYS runs, waiting for a signal from the fob to unlock. Headlights will run even if the car is off (but may time out depending on the manufacturer).

Ignition On items, like radios, climate fans, etc run when Ignition On is on. Most of them cut off during the Ignition Start position.

There are a few items that run during the Ignition Start position. Obviously, the starter motor, but also the airbag controllers and associated satellite sensors, and I also believe the occupant detection systems.

Bottom line, though, is the manufacturers know how much current draw they can make on a battery, and have cautiously limited the accessories active during the start position.

D

 

My $0.02. Coasting out of gear for extended periods of time is not just a poor race driving habit, it's not good for the street either. It's true that for most of the time nothing bad will happen in average dry conditions, which is probably why so many people do it, but good driving habits prevent things from going wrong and mitigate the circumstances if things do get pear shaped.

Coasting out of gear is considered a poor driving habit not just because it takes longer to re-engage the transmission in an emergency. It can prevent an emergency in the first place.

- Using the brakes continuously to slow the car while coasting on a long downhill can lead to brake fade. The continuous friction can overheat the pad (pad fade) or boil the brake fluid (fluid fade). Keeping in a low gear (for automatics too) to arrest speed can prevent brake failure.

- If out of gear and power needs to be applied, unless the rev match is done accurately, it may upset the car's balance. The car's weight can shift and/or the tires can lose traction. It's pretty hard to control a car at the limit balancing the clutch and throttle. It's pretty easy to give a little throttle input if the car is already in gear. In an emergency when the adrenaline kicks in, a driver gets tunnel vision, fine motor skills deteriorate. Not the best time to have to simultaneously juggle control of 3 pedals, the shift lever, and steering wheel. Problems can be made worse by slippery conditions when it's very easy to get the car sideways.

 

Okay. When I say coasting, I am referring to rolling up to a freeway exit ramp or something of that nature. I am not referring to cruising through town until I hit 80 and then putting it into nuetral until I have to speed up again or coasting through corners. I think a lot of you are reading more into this than what was intended.

Let me explain the scenario. I am driving the expressway at 75. As I approach the exit ramp that takes me up to an overpass, I slip into nuetral and coast, letting the natural incline slow me down. Sometime, but not often, Traffic begins to move and I shift back into gear and continue on. Most times, I simpley have to brake to slow down to stop. I know my car well enough to be able to choose the appropriate gear for the speed I am traveling to avoid either over revving the engine or "lugging" it. I also agree that coasting in a corner or through the streets is not a good idea. Apply the same thing to coming up to a stop sign or light where you know that you will be stopping. At lights, I slip into nuetral to both relax my leg and not sit there with the throw-out bearing active.

Point two. I know [my wifes does not rwealize this] that the accessories are temporarily interuppted until the car is started. That is my point. It does not cause extra load on the battery.

I've been driving for almost 30 years mainly in sticks and neither situation has caused damage to any of my cars nor ever caused a safety issue.

Point three. Those of you who are offended by the title of this thread all i can say is lighten up. Its called trying to be funny. This world is entirely too PC

 

smackboy1 -

A Car Talk quote reference that is more on point to the OP is the following:

Dear Tom and Ray:

My husband recently bought me a 1997 Saturn SC2 with a five-speed manual transmission. Because I haven't driven a stick shift car in 25 years, I asked my daughter -- who also drives a Saturn stick shift -- for some advice. Years ago, I was taught it was necessary to downshift when slowing in traffic. My daughter tells me it's better now to just put the car in Neutral and coast to a stop. When my husband drives my car, he downshifts from fifth to fourth to third and so on. Which way is better? -- Kathy
Tom: Well, there are definitely benefits to downshifting in normal stop-and-go driving, Kathy. It's just that they're not mechanical. They are that 1) it's more fun than doing nothing because you can pretend you're Mario Andretti, and 2) it sounds really cool.
Ray: The problem is that downshifting is murder on clutches! If you downshift through all the gears every time you stop (like your hubby does), you're effectively doubling the number of shifts you make, and thereby cutting the life of your clutch in half!
Tom: So if he's willing to pay for your next several clutches, then tell him "Fine, Hon. Downshift all you want."
Ray: But your daughter is much closer to being correct. Our only disagreement with her is that we don't like to see people coasting long distances in Neutral. If you suddenly had to accelerate to swerve around a car or get out of somebody's way, you'd have to waste time shifting into gear first.
Tom: So the best procedure is to just leave the car in whatever gear you're using, and use the brake to slow down. Then, when you're almost at a stop (when you get down to 10 or 15 mph, just before the engine starts to buck), push in the clutch and leave it in, while putting the gearshift in Second (just in case you need to accelerate). And when you've come to a complete stop a few seconds later, shift into Neutral and take your foot off the clutch.
Ray: The only exception to that rule is when you're going down long, steep hills. Then the brakes can overheat, and it's crucial that you DO downshift and use the power of the engine to keep your speed under control.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...anuary/03.html

 

/puts on advanced driving hat

But, that is exactly where you may potentially need all of the control you have, leaving a known environment (the freeway) and entering a whole new one (exit ramp / streets) is one of the more dangerous sections of your journey. You are putting yourself at a disadvantage and reducing the level of control that you have, not to mention increasing your 'recovery time'.

It is a bad and pointless habit.

A for the 30-year point - well I have held a license for 25 years and taken regular refreshers (IAM tested and motorcycle instructor), I have also passed tests in multiple countries and I am far from perfect. I am not a driving god, but I know a few people that I would class that way.

My father has held a license for over 50 years and is one of the worst drivers I have ever had the misfortune to be in a car with. He has some of the worst habits you will ever see, including the continual shifting into neutral thing, the race to get to 5th (at 30mph) habit and stopping hugely (2-3 car lengths) short at lights and way too early indication...

Lots of seat time does not always mean that you are doing everything right or even in the optimal fashion, it often means exactly the opposite, you probably have multiple bad habits that could benefit from some decent driver training.

You posted that you felt the criticism was unfounded (in as many words) and looked for validation. Several of us have pointed out that in the 'war' it is 50-50, your wife is incorrect about the battery side on modern cars, but she is right that coasting in neutral is bad, it is more a bad habit (control and safety) than damaging to the car, but it is a bad habit none-the-less.

 

Slap her already and get it over with!

 

Someone, give me an example where being in neutral is more prone to get into an accident than if you are in a gear when coming to a stop in 100 yards.

 

Sure, but we need a decent scenario first....

You are coasting at 50mph in neutral towards a stop sign on a damp two-lane exit ramp in the left of the two lanes. Up ahead, your lane is clear and there is a car stationary in the right lane, you are 100yds from the stop sign.

SOMETHING (this could be a dog a person or tumbleweed) suddenly appears in your path from the left. At a distance that is considerably closer than your minimum braking distance - ie you HAVE to swerve to avoid it and then swerve back into your lane to avoid a stationary car.

Your car has ABS, but because it is damp, braking distances are extended.

You have LESS ability to swerve out of the way without drive to the wheels than you do if you have drive (even if you are in the wrong gear) and this is applicable not only for the initial swerve, but also the swerve back to the left to avoid the cars.

In a powered situation, the move is a flick to the right, then left, powering through the move and braking for the stop sign.

In an un-powered situation the car will understeer on the flick right, assuming you miss the 'target' then you are left with an understeer left flick to complete the move before you hit the brakes. Assuming you can easily go from the left flick to the right flick in time. With power you almost unknowingly deal with the initial reluctance to turn / understeer a small throttle application will pull the car in the direction you want encoouraging it to turn.

The other option is to stomp on the brakes and use absolute arm-fulls of lock to ''flick' to the right, except this has two issues, under full/hard baraking the ABS will allow you to steer, but it takes a hell of a lot of lock especially in damp conditions, the understeer is incredible. Secondly as the object is still moving (left->right) your increasing the time taken to get there will mean that you need to steer even more to the tight, or maybe even head LEFT towards the curb to avoid. The maths and decisions are way more complex.

Essentially without drive you are turning a routine flick left/right into a way more difficult and dangerous situation.

 

MINI is a FWD car. more gas = understeer. swerving in neutral will not be dangerous at all. if you swerve and accelerate, you will shorten the distance in front of you even quicker. Because the right lane was backed up the car that was on the right side behind you will be a lot slower than you. . . .
You might be absolutely right but I just have not faced a situation like that and I can't imagine how I would apply more gas in that situation.
Downshifting several times coming to a stop will only wear out the clutch even when rev-matched. A brake job (DIY for $200 rotors and pads - front only ) is a lot cheaper than a clutch job ($1000).

 

Tell you what, here is how to prove it, and if you really want to make it interesting, video it

Drive in a dead straight line with a neutral throttle at say 50mph - ie maintain your speed.

Flick the car left to right and back again - perform the 'elk test' and feel the responses.

Now accelerate gently through the exact same move

Now engine brake through that exact same move

Now finally, try it in neutral - you might want to try this at a greatly reduced speed BTW - at 50MPh it is pretty dangerous.

The argument is not against block vs sequential shifting - I sequential shift (mostly) vs blocking my moves - separating out braking, gear changing and cornering into separate moves. I tend to sequence my way down the box, using small amounts of clutch drag to ensure that I am in the proper ratio, especially in damp/wet conditions.

The argument is as to whether physically putting the car into neutral and releasing the clutch thereby coasting is good or bad.

I am arguing that it reduces the level of control you have, I am backed by many years of advanced and defensive driving classes.

As for clutches vs brake pads, sure it is way cheaper to replace the brakes, but it is not an excuse to drive badly. I brake hard /late and wear through brakes on a fairly regular basis, but I also habitually rev-match my down shifts which gives you less clutch wear

My last clutch lasted 230,000 miles (BMW E30 325iS) of fairly aggressive driving, sequential shifting, track days, defensive and advanced driving classes, autoX days and teaching my step-son how to drive 'stick'. It only died because he HAD a horrible habit of riding the clutch......

In my experience a well driven manual trans car will often see 250K + miles on a clutch, but it is possible to destroy one through bad driving an a few minutes.....

 

I think many of you have missed the point of my original post. DOES THIS HARM THE CAR.

Quite frankly, I did not ask for people's opinions on whether THEY think it is not safe, a poor driving practice, poor skills training etc. Quite frankly, I consider it all opinions. And opinions are like rectums [G rated version] and the same thing comes out of both. Nothing i have read has swayed me from changing my "bad" habits.

My advice is this. If you are ever in the northern part of Cincinnati and you see a 2008 Chili Red/Black R56 coming off of a freeway, stay clear because I just unsafely shifted into nuetral and will probably be responsible for some sort of horrible collision that kills children, grandmothers, puppies and little white fluffy bunnies.

 

I honestly don't think you mean to harm your wife so I've taken the liberty of changing your thread title to more accurately reflect your mood

 

Maybe he DID mean to harm the wife!

Anyway, these arguments are really rather funny. They each have some merit and some flaws. No one is actually looking at the benefit of increased gas mileage and decreased emissions as something that counteracts the increased, yet unquantified, risk of accidents. Without the numbers, the debate is pure entertainment, and nothing of value.

No, it doesn't harm the car.

Matt

 

'MaxN', I don't agree with your response either, sorry ... you're clutching for straws here ... bringing up dogs and tumbleweeds to support your obsessive habit. Your argument can be shot down by stating that no matter the control in gear, the dog or elk or squirrel or donkey could 180 and move into your reaction ... their is no guarantee of avoidance, ever.

Again, for the situation the original poster normally encounters, there is nothing wrong with coasting and there is plenty of time to react to RELATIVE "emergencies" ... no dogs at an off-ramp, no other cars veering in front at 160mph at a track, no elk or caribou on a mountain pass. For the speed travelled in this case, the driver has more than enough time to react to ANY situation ... in neutral, coasting. I don't care what any driving school claims as bad habit, the rules do NOT apply at all speeds and in all situations. The rules are meant to be applied, as a habit, to keep drivers adept but not necessary for those who can use different methods effectively at different times.

As to your point that the exit ramp is a different environment than the highway, plEEEEEEEEEEEEEze ... he's coasting into an elevated road with plenty of space in front of him to make any decision necessary. He knows the ramp speed, he knows the road condition, he sees the environment ... reaction time is HUGE and the need for being in gear is for all intents and purposes ZERO. It is not a bad and pointless habit in that environment. It is on the 'Ring, it is on sections of California's coastal 1. You're posting hyperbole now.

'r56mini', using common sense like you have has proven the argument pointless in this situation.

'callahan', you shouldn't have changed the title for the few who should find a hobby instead of wasting time. And don't change a thing about what you're doing, neither driving (which is correct), nor joking (which is also correct).

 

He didn't change the title the Moderator did, because the moderator ASSUMED that the OP had different meaning and took it upon himself to change the OP's words, and did so in such a manner that in looking at the original post (and not reading to the third page) it appears the words are that of the OP himself (no where doe sit say edited by whom for what reason). The fact that such editing is being tolerated is a scary can of worms. I may not agree with what the OP had to say but I'll defend his right to say it!

If he hits his wife she should leave him and file a police report; I'm betting it's a figure of speech,but this thread is about transmission and battery so:

Situation, 45MPH road with two lanes each direction, 1/4mile out the light goes yellow, 1/3mile out, leaivng the car in gear will give you engine braking advantage if you get cut off or if a car behind you decides not to brake then you'll have more of an option to accelerate should you need it in order to make a safe lane change, and you can get going quicker if it was a stale red that went green.

Deep Cycle battery your logic applies does not harm, the factory battery is not deep cycle, any power draw will slowly wear it down, however I doubt it is enough to make more than a weeks difference over the the lifespan of the battery, so it would be classed under an insignificant amount. Much like Volvo switching to LED daytime running lights to save on fuel.

 

I changed the thread title because I got a complaint - and I agreed with it - poor attempts at humour do not make spousal abuse an appropriate attention getter or misdirection in NAM forums.