Long Story Short, we have a 2011 Clubman S and love it to death. But fate decided to put the back bumper of it and the front bumper of a Corolla in the same place at the same time and so now we have a practically brand new car with $8k worth of damage on its record. Thankfully everyone was okay.

So should we:

1. Keep the car and take whatever settlement money we get and mod it with a JCW kit and move on with life. (Any input on people who have dealt with diminished value claims on their mini please speak up.

or

2. Trade the car in on another mini that hasn't been crashed.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

Sorry to hear about your accident. I work in auto insurance claims, with a specialty on auto damage, so your thread title caught my eye. Glad everyone is OK, that's more important than any car.

As for what to do with it, that's purely a decision only you can make. If you take it to a good body shop, they should be able to repair it to pre-loss condition, so that shouldn't be an issue. My own personal choice would be to fix it and keep it, but that's just me. What do you want to do with it? Do you like the car or were you looking to get rid of it anyway?

On the diminished value front, every state recognizes the right to present a claim. Explain to the insurance company that you'd like to present a claim. They'll evaluate the estimate and photos and come up with an offer. I can't tell you what it'll be, that's up to the insurance company adjuster, but don't expect it to be 10, 20, 30% of the cars' value. It very likely won't be. This would all be with the Corolla's insurance by the way. Unless you live in Georgia, you probably can't collect diminished value on your own policy, it's probably excluded.

Hope it works out for you and you make a decision you're comfortable with. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

 

I agree, fix it and keep it.

I keep cars forever, so I wouldn't care about any damage on the cars record, as long it was repaired to "like new" condition. You may have a different attitude.

Whether or not it even gets on your car's record is a crap shoot, I have seen a lot of things that were repaired and not recorded on Carfax.

Dave

 

It can be repaired. My thoughts on damage like that is that the repairer adjuster will try and get by without replacing the floor pan in the back as they seem more intent on making sure it looks good from the outside when finished. The photo showing inside the tire well makes it look like that is really messed up.

I had similar damage to another car. I told the body shop that I wanted underneath and inside to remain structurally sound. I also told them I wanted to see the repair prior to paint and before the trim went back on so I could see what the underlying metal looked like. They were happy enough to do the repairs, show me what I wanted to see, and make it right.

By the way, the adjustment for the additional repairs was more than the initial estimate by a sizable amount. But I was confident that it was fixed right. In retrospect, they probably would've totaled the car if they'd been better at assessing the damage up front. Also make sure they give you a good rental car. You may be in it for a while (it's a whole lot easier to get your hands on a new bumper cover as opposed to a floor pan).

 

It can definitely be fixed properly back to spec but don't let ur insurance company choose a body shop for u, choose one urself.

It seems like u don't like the idea of keeping a car like this or maybe u wouldnt have even have mentioned it. Remember that this could be ur only chance to get rid of it and move on. Think about ur entire experience with your car and think about it. If uve been problem free with everything else maybe ur better off keeping it.

BTW If u do end up getting the car written off give OrangeCrush a shout, he's been looking for a new Clubbie project.

Best of luck. Glad ur fine.

 

So actually this happened back in April, It is at a really good body shop with mini experience, and they are replacing the whole spare tire floor pan, as well as the exhaust, rear bumper components, one of the doors, and at least one rear control arm. I don't doubt the car will be fixed correctly, but I am not a keep a car forever kind of guy, and regardless of how good the repairs are the car will still be worth less than it should be. Since it was more than 25% of the value of the car, the title will also be marked in addition to any carfax notes. I have talked to a couple dealers and they have quoted it at $5k to $8k less than good trade-in. My biggest complaint is making payments on a car worth alot less than what I owe on it, instead of being ahead like I was before the wreck.
Thanks for the input so far.

 

My input from my experience for what it's worth...

In NC, (the rules are about the same everywhere) an insurance company will pay depreciation which usually comes out to about 20% of the damage. In my 30 years of being in the body shop business, I've rarely seen that percentage change. (yes there have been a few cases of 25% but I've seen just as many 15% cases... the rule of thumb is generally 20%)

Having said that, going to a dealership isn't going to help much and here's why.

Let's pretend you got your car back and it's a crappy job... the color doesn't match, there's trash in the paint, the gaps aren't correct and even the pinch welds haven't been repaired.

The point is, it's not fair that your car holds the same value as your neighbor that's trying to trade in the exact same car that has never been wrecked... obviously their car is original and should be worth more.

That difference is obviously the amount of depreciation.

NOW, let's go the other way. Let's say that you got your car back and it's flawless, NO ONE can tell, not you, not the dealer, no one. If you were to trade your car in at the same time your neighbor has and there car hasn't been wrecked, is there depreciation? I mean, your car looks as good as their car does.

The answer is yes, there will be depreciation based at this point soley on the "stigma" that your car has been wrecked, not the fact that the repair job is inferior.

So having said all that, you'll find that in general, you'll receive 20% of the damages as depreciation or diminutive value.

HTH's,

Mark

 

Glad to hear your repairs are underway and sounds like it's in good hands. Orangecrush's information from the body shop perspective are great and spot on. I totally agree with him that the quality of the repair is very important. Diminished value often arises out of a perceived "stigma", exactly as orangecrush said.

Not sure what state you're in, but your title isn't going to be marked in any way as far as I know. The title gets branded if the car has been declared a total loss. To my knowledge, no state has a requirement to "mark" a title for a repaired car that wasn't totaled. The information Carfax gets is mostly from a very large insurance company database. So if the insurance company reported it to that database, it'll show up on Carfax, regardless of the amount of damage.

Insurance companies won't look at trade in value when considering a diminished value claim. They only look at the retail value, i.e. what would the car sell for on the open market? Dealers are in the business of "buy low, sell high", so obviously they're going to try to buy the car as cheaply as possible. Insurance companies are looking for what the cash value of the car was before the accident and what it's cash value is now.


orange,
As a side note, it's very interesting to hear your thoughts on the diminished value from the body shop side. Each insurance company sets their own procedure on how to figure out diminished value. For instance, my company looks at factors such as the age, mileage and severity of damage (not in dollars, but in repair/replace, pull time, etc...). But I guess in the end, it probably all winds up in a fairly similar range.

 

Not to derail the OP's thread but here's something that happened to us last year (well, a couple of years ago)

My shop has been word of mouth and referral for 15 years, we don't advertise, we're not in phone books nor a pro shop for any insurance company. We do 99% of the Acura dealership work in town not to mention Lexus, Mercedes, etc, etc. Even as we speak I have 2 of Rick Hendrick's '67 personal Corvettes in here doing restoration work. (20K for a paint job on one of them)

Anyway, a customer bought his son a brand new Acura RSX for 28K. With less than 400 miles on the car, it was rear ended. The car was brought to us and we put an entire back half on the car.

When the car was done, I went with the customer back to the dealership so he could trade it in. His logic was that he bought his son a new car and wanted him to have a new car, not a used one, not a repaired one but a brand new car.

When we got to the dealership, I had to tell the service techs which end of the car we repaired. They inspected the car, removed trim, panels, interior, put it up on the lift, etc, etc and could not find where we did the work.

The customer was thrilled to hear that. When he asked what they would give him on a trade-in, he was shocked to hear that they would only offer him 15K for the car.. that was a 13K depreciation.

How is that so? Didn't they just say how perfect the car was, how they couldn't tell even which end was fixed??

But yet, they hit him up with 13K dollars worth of depreciation. My point was it had nothing to do with the quality of the work, it's the stigma that is associated with a repair (and in this case, a car that has been back halved with less than 400 miles on it)

Now, you and I know the dealership which let's say they make 3-4K profit on a car wouldn't sell that car for 17-18K dollars, no way... they'd still try to get 24-25K for it.


I personally have no issue with a salvage title if I know the repair that was done. (I put my money where my mouth is because Oscar was a salvage title)


I'm glad the OP's able to get his car fixed and I wouldn't worry about the damage. If you have a trusted body shop (which it sounds like you do), the only detrimental association that car will have is car fax. (which I take with a grain of sand)

Mark

 

I appreciate the feedback, I am actually in NC (Greensboro), and have been on the wall about the whole thing from the start, and still don't know if I'm convinced on keeping it. One thing I have heard is to have an appraiser go over the car and use this as data to support the DV claim. Does anyone know if spending the $300 on an appraisal will really be worth it? It pains me to have a car that I could have easily gotten out from under if needed to being completely upside down on and being trapped under it......

 

IMO, no, it's not worth it... here's why.

The state of NC requires a vehicle to be totaled at 75%.

Up to that amount, an adjuster is allowed to do so at their discretion. (and you can bet they will have to justify it. No insurance company will want to spend 10K to replace a car if they can have it fixed for 7K)

I have had lawyers argue with insurance companies. The rule of thumb is 15%. If you have $8K worth of damage, that's roughly 1600 bucks going back to you. (I never did read if you were claiming it on YOUR insurance or the other guys. I say that because in NC, technically an insurance company does not have to pay depreciation on a claim if you are the insured.... MOST do but they don't have to)

Anyway, point is, if you get 1600 back, you're going to spend almost 25% of that money trying to what, another 5%??

5% would be an add'l 400 bucks and you'll spend 300 to get it.

Nope, take the 15% and run.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.


Mark

 

Keep the car and be happy with it. It's happy with you.

 

Orange,
That's a really cool story you told, and again I totally agree with everything you said about it. And having the Hendricks cars that ain't bad either...

kevtar,
I'm going to agree completely with orange. IMHO, it's a total waste of money. Those "specialists" will charge you hundreds and give you a boiler plate template package of info with very little value to it. It's basically nothing more than their professional opinion, written on 7 pages. I see them all the time here and since they often talk about trade in, which I mentioned earlier insurance companies don't consider, it's mostly worthless.

Without knowing more information, I'd say your diminished value claim is worth somewhere between $1000-$1500. Having one of those people write a report probably won't net you anything more.

Take a look at your insurance policy. It likely has language specifically excluding diminished value claims. Many policies do. So you'll have to present with the other carrier.

 

It was the other persons fault so the insurance claims are against their insurance. I gotta be honest this whole thing really stinks...What happened to being made whole again. Sounds like I'm gonna have to Lawyer up afterall.....

 

You're right, accidents do stink. No way around that.

Nor am I trying to pursuade you one way or the other, it's totally your choice what to do. Just giving you inside info from someone who does this exact stuff every day. So please don't take anything I say the wrong way, just trying to offer inside perspective and advise.

When you say being "made whole again", what does that mean to you? Some of the challenges are in that this phrase has no black and white concrete meaning. From the insurance companies perspective, you were paid the full value to repair your car, correct? Having the repairs done properly is your responsibility in chosing a good shop. I'm hoping the insurance is also providing you a rental car. They will also entertain a diminished value claim. So when all is said and down now, you'll have a properly repaired car that is as good as new, money for your loss of value. The insurance company is going to say you've been made whole, to which I'd agree.

It's completely your choice if you wish to get a lawyer. Just keep in mind that most lawyers won't touch physical damage only claims, there's no money in it for them. Plaintiff attorneys are looking for the gauranteed money claims. If one does take it just for diminished value, they're going to take a pretty significant portion of the settlement. From an insurance company standpoint, the claim is evaluated the same way with or without an attorney involved. They won't offer more money just because there is an attorney. So in the end, you'll probably lose money hiring an attorney.

Again, please understand I'm just trying to give you input and advice, you do what you feel works best for you. I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

 

One more "food for thought". In NC, if you decide to get a lawyer, the insurance company has the legal right not to deal with you AT ALL. They can keep it between your lawyer and themselves and the body shop.

What does that mean to you? Everything... because every time they convey something to the lawyer because they don't have to talk to you, the tally adds up on your lawyer bill.

After doing this 30 years, here's my suggestion.

1) Find a reputable shop YOU'RE happy with.
2) Let the "reputable" shop make sure the insurance company is putting the car back in pre-accident condition.
3) Ask for depreciation. If you get it... go home. If you don't... go home.

As long as your car is put back together correctly and you're happy with the repair, treat this as a life experience. It's honestly not worth getting into a pissing contest with the insurance company because I promise, they'll win.

A good, reputable shop will make sure you're car is "whole again".

Not trying to be pessimistic, just passing on what I've learned in the last 30 years in this business.


Mark

 

That's actually not NC specific. That applies to all states. When someone retains an attorney, the very first thing the atty does is shoot off a letter to the insurance company requiring all communication go through them. The insurance company isn't allowed to talk directly with the customer unless they have specific permission from the atty, which generally doesn't happen.

 

I wasn't sure if that is how it was but in either case, all (IMO) it does is make the lawyer rich (er)


Mark

 

I hear you guys, and I know a lawyer won't help.....just frustrated. I appreciate the voice of reason.

Again my hang up is if I want/have to get rid of the car down the road...loss of job, health situation change, family expansion, I'm going to have $1500 to cover the $5k - $10k in value difference to sell the car, a problem that did not exist prior to the accident. If the car was three years older even it woudn't be as big a deal to me, but I have only made 1 year of payments on the thing to date, and that leaves some time for financial risk down the road (Sure I should consider this when I buy the car and agree to the loan/payments....but this just complicates it)

 

I actually have some insureds' attorneys trying to deny me taking a recorded statement from my own insured.

All I have to do normally is remind them of the policy language that states it's the insured's responsibility to assist with a claims investigation and lack of complying with the policy can be grounds for cancellation. Attorney usually backs off quickly.

@ the OP: You're getting tons of good, free advise in this thread. And it's all spot-on. Would just like to add that Diminished Value claims for third party claimants are usually not dictated by State Insurance Regulations. Most carriers provide for such claims but they are not mandated to do so. So if the other driver's carrier in this claim denies it to you, I would not be shocked. Surprised, yes. Shocked, no.

 

That's the thing...where is the $5k-$10k value difference? If you're referring to the dealer trade in, again you're comparing apples to oranges. Dealers are in the business to buy cars cheap and sell them expensive. It wouldn't make sense for them to buy a car at full retail value, obviously. So the name of the game for them is trying to drive down trade in values. The prior accident "stigma" is a perfect thing for them to latch onto to say "Well, gee, I can only give you $850 for your $10,000 car because it's been in an accident.". They then turn around and sell it on their lot for $10,000 and pocket the $9k, or it gives them a bit of wiggle room to sell the car and make a "deal".

You also can't compare what the car may be worth in trade to what it's cash value was before the accident. They're two completely separate things. Accident aside, no dealer would give you retail cash value on a trade. You have to look at retail cash value before the accident and retail cash value now. That's where your diminished value claim lies. That's also where I'd question do you really have $5-$10k diminished value. Let's take the average of your two numbers, $7500. Pretend that before the accident your car was worth $20,000 (I don't really know much about your car, but just pulling a round number). So if it was really worth $7500 less now, that would give you a value of $12,500. Check on Ebay, Autotrader, Cars.com and other similar sites. Try to find a car with a clean title (which you will still have) that's the same year, miles, etc...as yours selling for that price. You're not going to find one. What you'll find is that there are cars on there that have accidents report on Carfax but they're still selling for the same price range as all the others.

Not trying to be a downer, but that's the reality. If your car is fixed properly, there really isn't much of a diminishment in value, if any.

 

Thanks for the help folks, I will let everyone know what the outcome is when I get the car back next week. Sounds like best option/worst case I would just try to sell the car on my own if we decided not to keep it.

On a new note, if we decide to do that what is the best way to handle selling a liened car in NC? Last time I did it it was a big hassle, because you don't technically have the title in hand, and alot of people feel funny about giving money for the car and waiting for the title to come in the mail, is there a better process to handle this? (Maybe payoff car with CC's and then use money from new owner to pay CC?)
Thanks again!
KT

 

One MORE thing....lol.

In the state of NC, you must declare if the car has received more than 25% damage IF the car is under 5 years old. My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that you don't have to disclose damage if it's more than 5 years old.

I do know for a fact that there is a box on the title that says "has this vehicle ever had a salvage or branded title" (or something to that effect) but I don't remember anything differentiating between damage and 25% damage.

Anyway, SC doesn't have this rule. In fact, many years ago, Carmax got busted buying cars for next to nothing from customers because they had branded titles, retitling them to Carmax's in SC and then selling it back to NC. It would then come back with a clean title.

That wouldn't work today, most states exchange information and if the title came back to NC, it would send up a red flag however that doesn't stop someone from selling a car in SC without disclosing damage.

MY SUGGESTION.... if you get the car back and are satisfied with the repair, just drive it. If you sell it later, be honest and tell them the extent of the damage. If it's repaired correctly, chances are by the time you sell it, the value will have dropped from age and the accident won't make a difference. (cause remember, you still have a clean title)

We fix cars constantly that are new. In fact, we JUST (last week) returned a 2012 MDX to a lady with 12K in damage and only 90 miles on the odometer. As long as you have a clean title, a damaged car isn't that big of a deal... it happens


Mark