At risk of hi-jacking another thread, I decided to start this one.

Let's say we have two identical Clubmans (non S or S it doesn't matter, as long as they're both the same). One is an Auto the other is a Manual.

If both Clubmans were to try to go from 0-60 as fast as they could, would it be a tie, or would either the Auto or Manual win?

Let's assume the driver of both cars were professionals.

 

I would think that the manual would win in this particular event. It takes the auto a bit more time to switch gears - that said, I suppose if someone was using the auto "gears" manually that they might do OK, don't know.

 

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i would say if you repeated the test 100 times the automatic will come out ahead. since with the manual you'd have to have a perfect launch and shift every time. even professional racers miss a shift.

 

The MCS with automatics trans have been shown to be quicker in the 1/4 mile over the manual trans on several occasions.

Auto: 14.77 vs Manual: 14.90

Quicker shifting? better sustained boost pressure?

See these links.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70RFE0_I9tg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyfl1OmE6YQ

 

Manual wins in real world driving. Factory numbers are about the same.

 

Manual has the potential to beat out automatic. But the driver is the unknown quantity. A better-than-average (e.g., C+/B-) driver can beat the automatic, but a less-than-average driver could get beat by the automatic.

 

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How do you know at what RPM"s to shift at for fastest 0-60 acceleration? I've never shifted gears near redline, but is that what professional drivers do in order to accelerate quickly?

 

To be completely accurate on shifting points at WOT(wide open throttle), you would need to put your MINI on a dyno to see what its actual horsepower peak. Usually, torque peak is at lower RPM but you would shift right at horsepower peak RPM to get at end of 1/4 mile quickest. That was, at least, the theory when we were drag racing(no, not racing in women's clothing) back in the 70's.

 

I would say the exact opposite. In 100 tests, a good driver will miss some launches and shifts allowing the auto to come out ahead, but mostly the auto will lose.

Manuals are direct coupled transmissions that draw no power from the crank and have no shift lag other than the time the clutch is disengaged. Autos are fluid coupled devices that draw crank power to operate and have lag between shifts.

The first auto I ever drove that didn't have noticeable lag is the new 6 sp Steptronic BMW has on the 335i (and other new cars).

I do not include the semi-autos (sequential and double-clutch gearboxes) in my above statements about auto trannys.

 

I haven't looked at the links above but I think I had already seen them when they originally came out. I too was surprised that the auto S took the manual each time and by a pretty good margin in the drag racing world. I suppose you could dump the clutch and slam gears to get better times on the manual but who would really do that with their own cars?

 

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/mini...030/specs.html

So Edmunds says that the Clubman's peak horsepower is at 6,000 RPM's. Does this mean that if I shift from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6 exactly at 6,000 RPM's, that this will provide the fastest acceleration possible on a manual?

 

Unless there is some engine feature I'm not aware of, yes, at wide open throttle at 6k for a Cooper Clubman and 5.5k for and S, you will get from point A to point B the quickest. I'm seeing MINI has something called "overboost" which I have no idea what it is so that may be a factor.

 

Does wide open throttle mean gas pedal to the floor?

 

I think the figures above with the auto S being faster than the manual is due to the turbo. An automatic car doesn't drop it's boost pressure because you're not disengaging a clutch, the engine continues to make power. Something like that. I remember talking about that years ago on a Honda board.

 

Pakerton, that's what it means. If you are in neutral and you slowly bring up your RPM to 6,000, you are putting out a small amount of horsepower because you are giving it partial throttle. But, if you are in some gear and you are at WOT at 6,000 RPM, you are putting out max horses for the Cooper. WOT and 5,500 is max hp for S.

 

Thanks for the clarification...now I really can't wait for my Clubbie to come!

 

Older automatic transmissions were slow to shift and rather inefficient. Modern automatics shift faster. The Sport button setting on the R56 MCSa modifies the shift points for performance. With the automatic you can spool up the turbo at launch and keep it up during shifts.

The tests I've read about with the R56 MCS have shown faster acceleration with the automatic. However, I doubt you would notice the difference on the street, and mpg is better with the manual. IMO, acceleration with a manual is much more entertaining.

 

I have drove both a manual and automatic MCS. The automatic seems faster. There's also alot of info on the net that shows the same. I for one don't get any thrill from moving a gear shift lever. If I feel the need to do it myself I 'll use the paddle shifters.

 

Oh forgot to mention... I'm only getting 1 mpg less in an 09 MCS vs 07 MC. Both were automatic.

 

Very well put I agree that acceration with a manual is much more entertaining. I did not like the lag I felt while shifting gears.

 

You don't necessarily want to shift at the power peak. Optimum shift points will vary per gear. Here are a few useful links.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/shifter.html

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm

http://www.welltall.com/ymc/discovery/car/shiftpt.html

Steve

 

I would say that you'd need to set parameters on the tests. The following are my assumptions;

1. On manual, it's a professional driver who knows exactly when to change gears and do so quickly.
2. On automatic, the driver is flooring the accelerator at the word go.

Both have the sport button on.

IMO, the manual would be faster. This is just an opinion.

 

For well set up turbo cars it is routinely the automatic that will go faster. Reason, as stated above, is you don't close the throttle when shifting so the turbo stays spooled up.

I would wager that an auto S would beat a manual S most of the time, given the owners are driving. If you get real pros it would be tight. Std auto vs std manual? Maybe the manual would have an edge, but, I still think it would be close.

FWIW, I am not faster than this automatic when shifting (in Sport setting) and probably was not faster even at my peak when I was racing (amateur). If you practice a LOT and nail the shift points, exactly, every time, then you might be able to beat it, but, that's probably one in a hundred (or thousand) of everyone here.

When drag racing you also have to be able to do a good power shift so you don't lose revs on the engine. It is not good for the car, especially since most people don't get it exactly right.

There is a reason the drag pros have gone to automatic transmissions.

charlie