if you two want others to avoid the same fate, fess up the name!

But really, these are independant franchises, so MiniUSA can't really do much for you. But it blows none the less.

NAM should have a dealer rating system. Then those with both good and bad experiences can post what happened and those that do research can avoid the problem ones....

Matt

 

There we go, let's bad mouth the evil greedy lawyers. Guess it's the fashionable thing to do.

I suppose he can simply not get a lawyer and see how he does with that.

 

Well, IMHO the only way you are going to handle a case against a car dealership is with a lawyer.

You are seeking self-help and trying to avoid dealing with evil greedy lawyers, but that's being naive in my opinion.

Car dealers know exactly how to deal with people who don't hire muscle [aka lawyers] to represent them. They basically tell you to take a hike.

Having sued many a car dealer, I was going to give you the legal angle on all this, but since lawyers have been declared low road greedy creeps in this thread, I'll pass.

Good luck.

 

No that wasn't Lawyer bashing. What it was, was stating a simple fact of life.

 

MichaelSF,

Just for the record, I am considering all my options including legal. I realize that as soon as I get to the point of bringing in a lawyer, it is going to cost everyone involved more money. I was hoping that the dealer would begin to see that picture and deal with me staight up, but I am prepared to evaluate all my options if they don't.

I am interested in my legal options and how you see this. You may be right and I might need help, I am just trying to avoid getting to that point.

 

It's moved beyond a "customer service" problem--it's clearly become a legal issue.

If you have a toothache, do you schedule an appt with a podiatrist to fix it?

If your stove is broken, do you schedule an appt. with a roofer to fix it?

Sure...technically you COULD do all of the things I just mentioned, but in the end, here's what you'll have:

Healthy feet...but you'll still have a toothache.

Reassurance that your roof is in excellent condition, but you'll still have a broken stove.

Money spent without any resolution to the original problem.

You need a lawyer and the sooner you retain one, the better.

Good luck!

 

My 2 cents:

Get MINIUSA involved. They have stroke with the dealers.

DSC can be retroffited. Wheel speed sensor are already there, wiring is already there. Like someone else said, would require a yaw sensor and probably new ABS pump (DSC controll module is built into the pump, I think). have the ZCS code changed to include DSC fitted. I would push this option with MINIUSA and your dealer.

As a last resort, contact your lawyer.

 

yes the order paperwork showed DCS, but you accepted the car, and accepted a half asssed explanation of why not getting what you ordered was fine. Seems to me there's a lot of ways a deep pockets company can bleed you through time or whatever into making the path to restitution, combined with the odds of success, very challenging.

With the way Minis are selling now, there is a very good chance that the effort involved to sell your car and buy a different one would be smaller than fighting the way to resolution if the dealer isn't going to play nice, but that's just how I see it.... I could be wrong, I sure hope so.

Matt

 

Well, you already chimed in and agreed with others in here that lawyers are the problem here, so I for one don't have an interest in putting in three to four hours telling you the scoop. I think you would agree that no one should be called names and insulted, but then help someone out.

Maybe those in here who seem to know about high roads, facts of life, despise lawyers [usually due to a bad experience] and about your type of problem can help you deal with this. I'll be hanging out in the low road area trying to refresh myself on the facts of life.

Bonus Tip: Your case is all about evidence, the law, damages and timing.

1. The longer you wait to pursue this [e.g., by taking the high road, not naming names, hanging around on NAM looking for a remedy, avoiding talking to an evil doer, aka lawyer, and buying into some BS posts in here] the more likely the law will not help you and you will be SOL.

2. Car dealers are, well, car dealers. They have lying down to an art.

3. Car dealers understand only three things, money, muscle and hard ball tactics. Of all the businesses one could go after, car dealers are the worst.

They act on the bottom line, what things will cost them in the end. You are asking them to give back money they already spent on their families.

They only respond if you have evidence to support your claim [isn't a key piece of evidence in the dealer's hands?] and someone to speak on your behalf. For now all the dealer sees is that their tactics are working. String you along, delay, and eventually you will simply go away.

4. Ask yourself this. Have all the posts herein that badmouth lawyers [which you bought into] and all the statements that you are "taking the high road" and declaring you are a swell guy helped your situation?

 

Oy, a Lecture!

 

Needless to say, but I will, this post is right on.

And the longer he has the car [three weeks now?] the more likely your second paragraph won't be a remedy. It might be too late already.

In the eyes of the law [I know, who needs to deal with that] this might have "degraded" to where his only option is getting the value of the option left out. In other words, no way a Court is going to order the option installed since the prudent and just thing to do is simply value the DSC option and award that money to him.

But from my experience, car dealers fight over every last nickel. They have lawyers on retainer who can stonewall and delay. So most likely the dealer won't even agree to give the value of the DSC left out. That's hard dollars and once the money is in the dealer's hands they don't give any of it back.

If the dealer did refund any sum of money, the dealer would have to take it out of the salesman's commission. With the car industry in a depression and salesmen suffering along with everyone else in the auto business, what's the odds that the salesman is going to agree with the customer, admit there was a screwup and that it is OK to tap his paycheck for a refund of the DSC option?

 

I have no dog in the fight, but isn't it ironic that a post chastising someone for putting down lawyers with generic stereotypes also contains a diatribe about all car dealers being professional, blood-sucking liars?

 

Lawyers are bloodsuckers...

Car dealers are liers....

Scientists have no social skills, pocket protectors and glasses heald together with tape...

The list is nearly endless.

Oh, the burdens we all must carry!

Matt

 

amen brother ....

some of my best friends are .....

but I wouldn't want my sister to marry ....

 

and when a mechanical engineer turns into a lawyer you get the worst: me -- a bloodsucker with a pocket protector

 

LIWexler, i guess the first thing to ask is, do you know what you want that would make this all ok? do you want the dealer to buy back the car, or give you some compensation in cash or gift card, or retrofit the dsc into the car, or what else? like already said, getting a lawyer for this might end up costing more $ and headache than it's worth. if you're a lawyer yourself or have a lawyer friend who's willing to help you, then it'll be worth it. if it's for spite and you don't mind spending the $, then maybe it'll be worth it. or alternatively we can all email the dealer to really annoy them. i have a feeling miniusa will try to brush you off, but it doesn't hurt to try 'cuz it sounds like this dealer is really being dirty. if you haven't found it, the generic miniusa phone # is 866-ask-mini. sorry you're going thru this; i'd be pretty pissed and disappointed if this happened to me

btw a dealer rating system would be a good idea. it doesn't have to be anything official, just a thread for a particular region asking for people's experience would be good enough. i think there's one for the soCal region that lists dealers who don't charge mark-ups, for instance

 

Well all these jabs and insults are amusing [and typical.] But at the end of the day do your posts provide the OP a solution to his problem?

This is a dispute against a car dealer and the OP's account of events indicate "stereotypical" dealer behavior, ignore the problem and the customer will go away.

Saying that the OP has "class" for not identifying the dealer and is "taking the high road" for avoiding seeking a lawyer's advice feeds his naiveté and ignores reality, the OP's situation is a legal dispute against a car dealer. That requires a lawyer to at least advise him on his rights and to explain the law.

Of course, another reality is that the "amount in controversy" [aka damages] may not be enough to justify retaining a lawyer. That's not the lawyer's problem nor should he or she be the blame [unless you subscribe to the concept that lawyers should be paid little or nothing for their services.]

He also has the law to deal with [oh no, that means dealing with lawyers, again.] The law in this situation may severely limit what the OP can do.

If it's possible, the dealer could be forced to install the option. If not possible, odds are a court would simply force the dealer to refund the hard dollar value of the DSC and not some arbitrary value, such as a dollar amount on what the DSC meant to the OP. In a contract dispute the law limits liability to hard dollar calculations, not damages based on emotion.

Unless the OP's sales contract has an attorney fee provision to the prevailing party or there is a state law providing such, I doubt a lawyer could or would take this case. That being the reality, the OP's best bet would be to simply sue the dealer in small claims court.

Of course, the OP can, as some describe in here, continue to exhibit class, stay on the high road and wait for the dealer to do the right thing. However, IMHO the OP will be waiting a long time since the dealer has shown its true colors and exhibited stereotypical responses [stonewall, ignore.]

To the OP this might all be perceived as too harsh a way to look at things. If this is so, then the missing DSC must not be that big of an issue to him. To be sure, the law in his State might agree that this is an insignificant problem.

 

Bonus Comment: Another reality is that the OP may not be in a position to bargain. And here's why:

While the OP might win a small claims court battle, he will be forever blacklisted by the dealer. He could never take his MINI to that dealer for servicing or repairs.

This is because human behavior being what it is, the dealer and his employees will retaliate against him for his having sued the dealer over this DSC issue. The OP's name will be entered into the dealer's computer and they will think of little ways exact revenge.

Bottom line: in not pursuing the matter on a legal basis, the OP is at the mercy of the dealer. He has to accept their decision.

While this all may sound far fetched, there was a case against a major European car dealer where the evidence showed the dealer [owner], after a case settled for a significant sum of money, entered certain car owners' names into the store database. The customers were then retaliated against in little ways.

Just something to think about.

 

A lawyer is required to address this, but it's not worth the lawyers time to work on it because the actual damage is too low!

Classic...

Matt

 

Oh get off it. You must have really been burned in a case and blamed it on the lawyer to harbor such bitterness, emotion and animosity. Query: Did you miss that I said "That requires a lawyer to at least advise him on his rights and to explain the law" or did you intentionally twist my words to justify your post [aka misstatement or misquote]? And where did I say "it's not worth the lawyer's time." I said that a lawyer's services would not be justified given the limited damages. That's far different than painting the picture that the lawyer is sitting back in his office chair, chomping on a cigar, saying "your case is not worth my time."

In any event, what I meant, and I assume people of average intelligence would understand, is that he should consult with a lawyer to find out the law, his rights, etc.

That does not mean the lawyer could take the case because the damages could not justify the fee the lawyer would have to charge to handle the case through resolution.

People pay lawyers for consultations to find out what is what. Of course, I am not referring to those lawyers who advertise on TV for auto accident cases. They offer "free consultations." But this is a contract / business dispute and free consultations are not usually provided.

Stick to talking about MINIs, you don't know squat about the law, litigation, contracts, damages, how lawyers work and the profession. After all, this is MINI forum. You have lots of experience with the MINI, but some of your posts in this thread are nonsense and serve only to push the OP over a cliff.

Some people.

 

relax...

 

Don't be so presumptouos. I use lawyers for patent submission, tademark, and corporate formation work currently. But didn't you read your own post? Didn't you point out that damages would most likely be limited to the cost of the delta? (This is $500 on the standard build sheet, never mind that it was listed as a $0 option on the OPs option list.) Those were your words. What's a typical consultation fee? If it's a c-note, that's 20% of potential satisfaction before anything even happens! Sometimes it doesn't take a lawyer to know when your swimming upstream!

Way I see it, you're the one with the thin skin here. I've taken joking about dating and being a physicist for multiple decads, yet I realize that me getting pissed about the stereotype (earned or not) is really a case of just pisssiing into the wind.

Really, take that hyper trained intellect that you have, read your own posts for content, realize that you're the one that's said (as have others) that while lawyers would be required to fight this one to a finish in an advasarial confrontation, that it's not worth the time.

Also, take the time to realize that you're guilty (as others have already pointed out) of using the very same abuse of stereotypes that rubs you so raw! OF COURSE you're going to see the worst of car dealers, who's going to sue a car dealer that does something nice for them? This is a self selecting group if there ever was one! This will just go to reinforce your preconcieved notions of the "typical" behaviour of car dealers that you quote to defend your own use of stereotypes.

Some people indeed!

Matt

 

Wow, somehow I think LIWexler is no longer the angriest person on this thread!

 

I think you should leave the lawyers out of this and simply talk to the dealership, saying you love your car, but really need the DSC!!! I've personally never driven mine in rain OR snow here in Colorado (and I don't intend on doing so) but I have had a BMW X5 4.8 that, when the DSC was turned off, OOOOHHH LA LA, that car could be fun, 4wd with all that power on snowy bare road. That being said, it would NOT be a pretty sight to drive a MINI in the snow without DSC. Why not tell them you will take an R56 and ask them to simply sell your car as a demo??? Or maybe they can't because they have titled your car already? Hmmmm... not sure what to suggest. If this happened to me, i'd go to my dealership and demand they get me another car, perhaps an R56. Look, you don't want money in place of your lack of the DSC, you want your DSC!!! We're talking about a major part of YOUR safety in this car during the winter months!!! What if you have 3 passengers during a snowstorm and you crash because you didn't have DSC and all three passengers sue you??? There you go lawyer Michael, i'm throwing you a bone. You tell them what'll happen, since you seem to know everything about the law

 

Um...if someone crashes because they didn't have DSC, there's a BIGGER problem afoot!

When will people REALIZE that DSC is N-O-T a GUARANTEED SAFETY NET?!

If a driver is UNTRAINED on defensive/corrective driving techniques, DSC will NOT prevent an accident!

Heck...even if a driver IS trained on defensive/corrective driving techniques, DSC will NOT prevent an accident.

It merely assists with regaining control--nothing more, nothing less...and if a driver doesn't know how to regain control whether DSC is present or not, the driver should enroll in a defensive/corrective driving course. The course will (hopefully!) improve driving skills AND most insurances give discounts when you provide proof of course completion.

Anyone who is RELYING on DSC to protect them from accidents is...well, silly!