Oh...almost forgot...

Injured passengers (whether in your MINI or the other car) will ALWAYS have the option to sue and DSC (installed or not) will have NO BEARING on a person's decision to file suit.

"Mary, I was thinking about suing you for injuries/lost wages because you were charged for causing the accident, but now that I know your car had DSC installed, it clearly wasn't YOUR fault, so I've changed my mind." (Yeah, right!)

 

LIWexler, have you considered going to the local media, as in your local tv station? Most stations have an investigator to look into problem areas. We all know that businesses don't like bad publicity. I would try this first then if you don't get satisfaction definitely see an attorney. Time is of the essence right now, act quickly and get this resolved to your original configuration, nothing less.

 

Erika I agree with you 100%.

That is why I suggested the OP ask for a set of real winter tires & wheels.

IMO that is going to be a doable solution for him & will actually help him with car control in winter. All that holds our cars on the road are 4 tire footprints about the size of ones hand. Tires are very important, more so than most folks realize.

 

spoke with my local dealer and most likely what happened was that the dealer, while placing the order saw that you did not/were not charged for the DSC (the $0 that you saw) and simply deleted it off the order so he would not be charged for it and then have to give it to you for free.
Why not the foglights? I dunno, are you sure they weren't already included in some package?

Why he did not call you and inform you of the change or give you an opportunity to change it or pay for it, I have no clue.

And what he did was downright criminal. I would have taken the car back to them and sit in their dealership until they bought the car back.

I seriously doubt it was the factory mistake.

 

[quote=LIWexler;2395951]MiniQuiped,

It is not my intent to publically tarnish the reputation of my dealer, but check your private messages for my response[/quote

...but, the dealer has already tarnished his/her reputation in his dealing with you on this. Your MA knew what you wanted I'm sure and he screwed up. You are being reasonable for sure, but the dealer needs to take some responsiblility .. If they provided fog lights at $0 they need to tell you why they did not provide the DSC at $0.

Hang in! Wish you would let us know what this is -- I would hate for one of my family to end up dealing there!

 

First of all, a huge THANK YOU to all of you who have posted on this thread and offered your suggestions and support. I am new to this online community, and through this and my other posts I am enjoying the experience of Mini ownership to its fullest (dealer experience not withstanding).

Since I was away from my computer enjoying a perfect Wisconsin summer weekend in my new convertible I missed some of your posts until today. With the help of you fellow NAMers, I think I have found the appropriate person at MINIUSA and began a dialog.

If I do not receive satisfaction from MINIUSA, I will continue to work through the suggestions you have provided. I know I was called naive, but I wanted to keep this from becoming a legal matter. I think time for that “hope” is running out. I would think that the dealer would realize that this situation could cost him far more then replacing or fixing the car. I have already had one co-worker who ordered a Mini from an out of state dealer to avoid dealing with this dealership due to my experiences, and I know a lot more people who are potential customers of this dealership (not just for Mini).

I know that another criticism I took was for not revealing the dealership name to the website. That is kind of a joke especially when the request is coming from the East or West Coast. Revealing the dealership does not change my predicament, and lowers me to a level I do not wish to reach today. If anyone has questions about the car you are about to order in Southeastern Wisconsin/Northern Illinois, send me a Private Mail and we can discuss your situation. I do think a dealership rating by region might be a great idea for this website. Probably would have saved me some headache since I am not the first person with negative experiences with my dealer.

Please trust me when I say I am not ruling out any of my options in this situation. You have provided me with some great feedback and ideas, and if the dealer expects me to just “go away” they have another think coming. Please keep your suggestions coming and I will keep you updated to my progress. Hopefully, I can report soon that it is all resolved to my satisfaction.

Thanks again for all your support.

Larry

 

Ooooh, can I at least make a guess based on these 2 posts by MiniQuiped?

After getting PM from OP:

 

that just by driving the car and racking up miles the chance of a car exchang is rapidly going down the toilet. I'd guess you're working on some sort of compramize, and good luck with it.

Matt

 

I would also suggest that, just for the sake of more documentation in your favor, go to MINIUSA's owner's forum and print out the spcefications for your car from there. I haven't picked up my car yet, so this info is avialable along with the car tracking stuff. It would also be part of a saved configuration, if you created one prior to ordering. If it is still available for you, print out the relevant parts. This is likely redundant to the written proof you already have, but that's the point. A certain amount of redundancy is good. It may also show on the MIN configurator what you should have been charged for the DSC. You could try configuring one to match your order and see how it is priced, then printing that out to save the results.

Before I ordered, my MA told me not to have MINIUSA.com submit the order to them automatically because they have had many problems with that. I'm curious whether you went this route, which the website suggests. The system was known to be faulty by at least my MA more than a month ago, and likely known in advance of your order. That suggests that this known problem should have prompted your dealership and/or MINIUSA or MINI to check the submitted information.

As far as a solution, I think snow wheels and tires are an excellent idea. Depending on how long you expect to keep the car, more than one set might be in order. I would take snow tires over DSC without question. I have an older ('95) Passat that I drove with snow tires alongside our 2001 GTI which had all sorts of traction control (ESP), and the Passat's performance in the snow was significantly improved with snow tires (Dunlop Graspics) over the GTI and the regular tires the Passat wore.

This provides a far less complex solution than adding DSC, and also alows a cash settlement to achieve the same thing. Legally, you might sue for the cost of two sets of snow tires and one spare set of alloy wheels identical to those on your vehicle, including TPMS sensors, mounting costs for two mountings to the rims and seasonal swaps for the next X years. Unfortunately, your lawyer would also take around 1/3 of what you got, leaving you with enough to get one set, probably. I'm not sure how you might sue for additional legal fees. My point is that the legal option would be painfully slow and not likely to your advantage.

You may also choose to consult with a lawyer, even if you choose not to hire one. You would then be able to inform MINI that you have "spoken to your lawyer, but have chosen not to pursue this as a legal case until MINI has a chance to respond to your requests".

Brian

 

Brian... this is a very well thought out and finely written post. I assume the OP will appreciate the time you took to write it.

By the lawyer taking 1/3 of a recovery that assumes the OP could find a lawyer to handle this matter on a contingency fee basis. [A fancy name for the lawyer working on "commission only" aka no recovery - no fee] I doubt given the amount in controversy that a lawyer could take the case on a contingency basis since a dollar recovery is highly unlikely, and even if it was, there would not be much to take 1/3 from.

Very interesting about the website order process having issues. If this was big time litigation (it's not) that tidbit of information you provided would probably sink MINI USA's and the dealer's defenses.

I agree with your proposed remedy since 1) the OP has apparently been enjoying the car. The longer he drives it the more likely a court would simply give him a dollar value for the omitted DSC; and 2) this is a breach of contract case where I doubt a court would award the drastic remedy of undoing the deal or making the dealer install the DSC [that I assume would be very expensive to do.]

I think that the OP has the dealer by the _____, but as one federal judge said to me in a fed odometer prosecution case: "Well, I don't know about the defendants' version of events, we are dealing with a bunch of car dealers here." Given how things have gone so far, I don't see the dealership doing anything for the OP that costs them hard dollars.

From everything I have read, the only thing the dealer will understand is breach of contract small claims action.

It was a pleasure reading your post.

 

short version: The case is worth so little, that you'll have to pay by the hour and it will cost more to prosecute than any possible damamges. You're on your own with small claims!

And no, I don't post this cause I hate lawyers, but that is the jist of your post.

Matt

 

I got curious about small claims court in Ohio. BIG differences from California. Two main ones:

1) Attorneys are allowed to represent you in Ohio Small Claims Court [attorneys are not allowed in California small claims courts]; and

2) $3,000 limit [California is $7,500.]

In California on the smaller disputes [generally perceived as Small Claims Court maximum or less, $7,500], plaintiffs [that's you] often retain counsel to consult about claims and to spend an hour additional showing the prospective plaintiff how to prepare the case for presentation in small claims court.

And believe it or not, Judge Judy or the other TV small claims court shows do give some good pointers on how to present a case. [E.g., Judge Judy often times comments "do you have evidence of that statement" or "that's irrelevant."]

While Judge Judy producers pick cases for TV that are entertaining [viewers would otherwise be bored and not watch the show], they do have attorneys on staff who consult with Judge Judy and make decisions based on California law. But they have to keep it simple and quick to cram two legally sound cases into twenty minutes [assuming 10 minutes in commercials.]

As others have said, your claim is a minor dispute [and the dealer may know this. Explains their non-response?]

The biggest problems you have:

1) You are not out any money since you were not charged for the DSC. So where's your damage?

2) Since the DSC was an option and not a critical piece of safety equipment, this is a "no harm, no foul" situation;"

3) Because you are not out-of-pocket, a court might say you have no case since there is nothing to refund. And it would be silly for the court to rule: "Pay for the DSC, then come back and I will order that money to be refunded;"

4) Your best argument might be the Court awarding the value of the DSC, but courts generally don't award damages based on speculation or subjective factors [e.g., the value of DSC to you, based on emotion or your thinking processes,] so a court would limit damages on a calculable, quantifiable hard dollar value and not value of the DSC to you. It might simply award the listed cost of the DSC as an option from the factory. Is that much? I don't know what that option cost, but this might be a $1500 case at most?

5) Since you have been using the car most likely the time has passed within which you could have insisted on the DSC being installed, an exchange of cars, undoing the deal, etc. For others reading this, the best way to have dealt with it was to simply not take delivery of the car and to insist on the car with the correct options. Even if the dealer "defrauded" the OP into accepting the MINI by misrepresenting the DSC, while buzzwords like "fraud" sound nice, such cases are hard to prove [especially in this case] and hard damages are low [punitive damages should not enter into the calculation since I doubt the OP can show the dealer acted in a malicious, fraudulent manner.]

6) In any case, wouldn't the dealer counter-claim or demand that the OP pay for the fog lights that he apparently got for free? Just something to consider.

Just thinking out loud in this thread so to get the motors turning, as I have to write an article for a publication. Writing this stuff is kinda like doing a warm-up before a workout.

Ohio Small Claims Law:

Statute: Ohio Revised Code Annotated Title 19, Ch. 1925, Sections 1-18; Ohio Rules of Civil Procedure.

Dollar Limit:: $3,000.

Where To Sue: Where defendant resides, has a place of business or where breach or injury occurred. Nonresident defendants where plaintiff resides. Corporation resides where it has principal place of business or location of agent.

Service: Certified mail by clerk, return receipt, sheriff, bailiff or court-approved adult. [This makes getting the lawsuit going very easy, IMHO]

Hearing Date: 30 days from filing of complaint.

Attorneys: Allowed. A corporation may proceed through an officer or employee, but may not cross-examine, argue or advocate except through attorney.

Transfer: If either side requests, if defendant counterclaims for more than $3,000 or at court's discretion, case tried under regular civil procedure of appropriate court.

Appeals: By either side for review of law, not facts; to Court of Appeals within 30 days.

Special Provisions: No equitable relief. [the Court cannot issue a mandatory injunction to force MINI to install the DSC?]. No jury trial. No discovery.

Bottom line [or short version as some say] - IMHO you don't have many "options" [including, apparently the DSC] and the dealer is NOT in much trouble. Sorry.

 

I think I was the one who mentioned that. My point was that while the law encourages people to try and work out disputes before going to court, your account of events and all indications are that this car dealer made a conscious decision to stonewall and ignore you.

But that's just my opinion after mixing it up with criminals, frauds, cheats and dishonest people [for way too long, probably. I'm too jaded, having dealt with the worse of society, for too long. Heck, I have gone on record as saying 80% of lawyers do "C" work or less for the client and most lawyers have no business being lawyers.]

As to your statement about replacing or fixing the car, IMHO those are unrealistic demands [see earlier posts.] I suspect that part of the dealer's non-response to you might be motivated by previous experience as to how the law deals with mistakes on cars as ordered. At the dealership there is probably a pecking order of errors, where more serious mistakes require an exchange or undoing of the deal [such as the car color being incorrect] to less serious omissions, such as certain options being left out.

On the dealer seeing the errors of their ways and that not doing an exchange or fixing the car would cost them more money in the long run, most people and businesses don't think that way. They only look at what is in the wallet at the time and seek to protect that.

In contrast, what does not enter into the hard-dollars calculation is lost income from prospective sales. This is partly because the dealer [and salesman] see this as an attack on money in the bank, whereas prospective sales are intangible and speculative. In a sense, what the dealer and salesman do not know is not hurting them or affecting their thinking.

While there are honorable, ethical and fair dealers / salespeople, IMHO I don't think your dispute is with those exceptions.

Look at the bright side, at least my negative posts are keeping your thread alive.

 

You DO have a sense of humor! I was starting to wonder.....

Matt

 

I just wanted to put this issue to bed, and let everyone know I have finally received a resolution to my problem. I think I achieved my goals of not escalating it to a legal matter, and not sinking to calling the dealership names (at least not in public). I guess it is possible to have a dispute with an auto dealership and still maintain some of your dignity and class.

Today (thanks to a co-worker with a minivan) I picked up my four new snow tires mounted on a set on Mini rims which match my summer rims. They were provided to me in compensation for not receiving the DSC I ordered when I purchased the car. I know they will not correct me if I start to slide the car sideways on the snow like the DSC would, but hopefully they will prevent me from getting to that point to begin with. It is the fairest solution I can think of, and short of getting the DSC installed, it is the most I could ask for.

I would like to pass out a few "Thank Yous" to the NAM community:

First, thank you very much for your suggestions and support. I have to admit I would have never come up with the snow tire idea, or known who to contact at MINIUSA without you guys.

Second, thank you to MINIUSA who helped me get the dealer even to talk about the error, and then to help fix it. Regardless of my dealership, I got the impression that MINI itself cares about their customers. That is a feeling that should make everyone in the NAM community feel very good.

Third, thank you all for your sense of humor. I know it got hairy a few times calling various professions various names, but I always enjoyed seeing what everyone had to say.

I look forward to seeing you all on other NAM posts (or this one if someone has a similar problem), and hopefully on the open road. Please feel free to contact me via private message if you would like any more information about my situation.

 

Congratulations on working out a satisfactory arrangement without having to get ugly. Now get motoring!