Wow. I am actually touched. Thank you.

I really do try to be fair and thats is what I mean about not being blind and seeing the total picture. An informed public is much more better than blind faith in marketing.

The unfortunate thing I see is way too many people having blind faith that the MINI is all things to everyone when, in fact, its OEM handling is, at best, mediocre. Just look at the numbers here https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=80382

Sure it wins its class in autox. Its an excellent autocrosser. The author NEVER mentioned autox. When I see ppl saying how they passed Vettes and Vipers and whatever on Track Days, it mean little ... as Skiploader said ... its all in the driver. I have personally seen that with a driver in a VW whomping on Porsche Turbos at autox. The driver was smooth and awesome. A great driver is not in the same league as the average joe anymore than a professional golfer is playing the same game as the guys going out on Sundays.

I know everyone doesn't want to hear the faults because most people know the mechanical issues but rash statements that it "owns" everything in the twisties and the likes is just so much ... wind in the air.

WE loved our MC40. My wife had tears in her eyes when selling it (she got over real quick). I never listened to the radio ... only the whine and Mr. Borla. But the fact is ... it was just not a reliable daily driver for her and I was not going to have her stranded with cold start issues and fail safe mode and whatever ... its just not worth the hassle. Maybe MINI will learn from the past quality issues and get it better this time around. I hope so.

MCSs are absolutely a BALL to drive and value for the $$$. They are highly regarded in other automotive forums as daily drivers and FUN ... but much of that is perspective provided by being in a tiny car with a loud whining supercharger that people artificially make louder and booming exhausts. I know because its exactly what I had. It gave the perception of being fast when in fact, I knew it really wasn't. It "sounded" fast ...

So I will say it again ... MINIs are a ball to drive. I still love them and we are considering getting a turbo covertable when it comes out since the wife likes the convertable.

And about trolls ... READ this to see a real troll http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...ighlight=troll

which is a carry over from

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=119940

Even his fellow owners made fun of him ...

Now THAT was a troll (or someone severely disillusioned).

Eval wrote: And the RAV4 thing, really, if that is not a clear move to incite an argumentative response what is?

I just happened to realize at that point that I'd noticed a negative trend in Chows posts, questioned why and then called it as I saw it (with a smily mind you, I realize there is no real ill intent and none of it is dead serious anyway, really its all just a bunch of opinions flying around on a car forum).

I have no ill intent at all. It just information ...

After looking around at other SUVs, we just very recently ended up buying a V6 RAV4 to replace our old 4 cylinder one. I found that info doing research on the car.

Its only got a few hundred miles on it ... no where near break-in. Can't go over 4K but I can tell you my obversations of the car now that I own one.

• Its much bigger, I can haul much longer and more stuff than before.
• Its gas mileage is amazing 21 - 28 EPA. With only a few fillups, I expect 23 - 24 in my driving. Thats is just under 25 I got in the MCS but the RAV4 take regular ... not premium.
• Handling? Well its a boat But I bought the "sport" version with the bigger wheels/tire, stiffer shocks, etc. Don't know how the standard one feels but with all the electronic gizmos now ... I got to say it feels pretty good to me. No, its not going to have skidpad figures as good as a MINI. No, its not going autox. But in the recent rains we had, it sticks like glue.

and acceleration? The thing is a rocket. I know its probably not as fast at the JCW was but then again, I aint been over 3500 RPM. Don't need to, it got tons of torque.

Is it fun to drive? Actually ... yes. I drive it just like any sportscar I've ever owned. No it doesn't handle like our mid-engined MR2s but doing "normal" things ... driving to work and about town ... it is quick. I'm not going to compare it to the CS because that would be ridiculous but for our needs, I think I got what we need. A quick hauler/bad weather car.

 

PS: Yeah, our 03's interior with the brushed dash and silver accents was a bit louder then our 05 is with the anthacite. Still, it is no more plasticy then other cars in it's class - many people are simply more accepting of boring blackish greyish brownish plastics in monotone interiors as in so many cars even if they actually look and feel worse.

 

He's playing the devil's advocate - he posted an article for discussion - and he has been moderating the ensuing "debate". Whether the reviewer is an alcoholic, vegi-sexual or communist makes no difference in discussing his opinion of the MCS, or discussing which points may have some validity.

Car and Driver is a publication that has never been high on the Mini. R&T is - in main part because Peter Egan is an owner. It doesn't matter, writing for an automotive magazine doesn't guarantee a valid opinion - it only guarantees a more widely read one.

Every time I read a Motor Trend article I am reminded of all the MTCOY flops - wasn't it the Citation or the Chevette they graced with that honor?

I respectfully disagree. A guy coming on here with 1 or 2 posts with the screen name RAVMiniKilla! posting that he creamed a JCW from a dig in front of the local In and Out Burger is a troll. A discussion among known posters on this Forum using the RAV4 to show how the Mini is sometimes overhyped is not. The fact remains - a RAV4 (6 cylinder) can beat and MCS off the line. Period.

Your much too old to ever be considered a newbie . And I also noted your smiley. I'd be less concerned about Chows' recent "mean" streak and more concerned that he might deface that new Cayman S of his with a checkerboard roof and mirrors.

 

Okay, I give up - but really, honestly, you can call it devil's advocate or stirring the pot or whatever other description you like - but posting a thread with "MINI vs SUV" in the title, then calling out SUV 'bashers', then later say "man won't it be embarrasing when a pullied or JCW MCS gets smoked of the line by this lumbering beast" etc etc is akin to trolling in my book - all you need is a bridge to hide under And then, as I said, to start this thread the intent of the original post seemed designed to incite people by taking negative remarks abuot the Mini from the reviewer and quoting them out of context. I'm not going to go through other posts to find things, I'm just sayin' this is how it how it strikes me and I wasn't even sure if Chow's was aware of it and what the motivation was. And now I'm just going back and forth for the sake of it, it's addictive

 

ZING!

 

I still think your not getting it but thats life.

Just think of it this way. Suppose you were VERY interested in something and ALL you ever read were the POSITIVE reviews. Wouldn't that be pretty boring. Then when someone provides a negative review ... you don't want to hear about it and immediately discount the author because HIS opinion doesn't agree with yours.

I think its MUCH better to read ALL the reviews, pro and con and that is exactly what I tried to present.

BTW, as you got me curious, I looked up the C&D and R&T test results of the SUV vice JCW

0 - 60 6.3 seconds for both. MCS is usually in the 7 second range depending upon who reports it.

And now I give up. ... if you don't get it, you don't it.

 

I'll agree the MINI isn't THE best handling car or even maybe the best in it's class but for the way I drive I feel more confident in the MINI than than a MkV GTi. While it's intriguing that a V6 RAV4 out accelerates the MINI it's not really relevent. More importantly is how other cars out accelerate it. I could point out that a V8 Dodge Ram out accelerates a RAV4 but all that show is that a particular power-wieght ratio with particular gearing will result in a certain acceleration to a certain velocity. As far as interior plastics go I was originally looking at an EVO so the MINI interior is most certainly a step up from that in feel and quality.
I chose a MINI for the sum of it's package, it's good enough in all the ways that are important to me to have been the right choice.
Finally, I don't put much credit into journalists opinions because they are just that, opinions. The hard numbers combined with reports of problems over long term tests are what count leaving the short road test articles for entertainment and highlighting changes to a vehicle.

 

i'd say be open to other people's opinions and get over your own stubborness. he author's made a few valid points. I have several cars and the mini has its pros and cons. Auto forums always tend to have extremists who only see their car as the end all for all things...

Performance is decent but i wouldnt buy a mini to be a sports car.

The mini engine is decent but not the most economical, nor the most powerful.

The mini ride is harsh with 17s and fantastic (IMHO) with 15x7's. A great car shouldnt need mods to be what you'd like it to be.

Without the electrical steering system (which always gets a bum rap) the car would feel dreadfully underpowered.

I find the mini to be a wonderful cute and fun car for the average joe. Its neither a fanatastic track car, nor a car that could fit a family of 4. Its very much a niche car so celebrate it for what it is, rather than what it isnt. Let the critics say what they will. Its blatantly obvious how limited a person's views are by just reading what actually comes out of their mouths, or writing.

 

EXACTLY!!!!!

NAM is no exception. If you fanactical, you will find no fault.

MINIs ARE CUTE and fun to drive

But far more importantly and well said:

... A great car shouldnt need mods to be what you'd like it to be.


The mere fact many people have to quickly modify what the manufacturer has provided OEM tells me it has "problem areas".

Sure enthusiasts, a very small subset of owners, will always want to tinker and hobby their car but for the vast majority to want to do immediate mods like dumping OEM RFs tells me their is something inherently wrong with the engineering decisions.

 

And I wish I had the opposite. Everyone likes the interior of my car... well, at least they make nice comments. What did you DO to the poor thing? Maybe you just need better friends?

At least the MINI interior has some character, and the center-mount speedo really turns heads in my experience. maybe I have no taste (shrug).

As for a defense of the handling... Well, all I can say is that I'm not a racer with years of experience, but on an AutoX track recently, I was turning lap times within a second of other similarly-skilled Miata drivers with similar cars (read as: almost totally stock with few MODs), and I even beat the times of several of them, and I had (at the time of the race) run-flats and the "terribly heavy" S-lite rims on the vehicle. I keep hearing that Miatas are in a similar class to the Mini, in regards to weight and such, so the handling must not suck. Unless you're saying that Miatas also have equally terrible handling? I think Miata enthusiasts (who are drawn to the cars because they're nimble, light and have rear-wheel drive) would disagree. maybe I just have insanely good driving skills. Yeah, that must be it.

Sounds to me (and all IMHO, of course), this writer made two mistakes:

1. Drove the car like a rear-wheel drive. MINIs aren't and they need different cornering and roll-on technique

2. Compared the car to something else costing far more, or to something not a MINI. Sure, the MINI will be slower than, say a Porsche, but it costs far less... Sure a RAV4 might get off the line faster with its two extra cylinders. but what kind of lap times will it turn compared to my MCS? I'll take "Things that are slower for 1000, Alex".

 

I said I gave up but I lied, I forgot to unsubscribe to the thread and got the email which dragged me back if just to clear something up and not be miss-characterized: I am very aware of the limitations of the Mini (which obviously includes not being a fast 0-60 drag racer), I do not put on on a pedestal at all, and am a very fair minded person who always, to a fault, sees every side to an issue. I am also aware of language and nuance and thus to me the difference between sharing useful info in an evenhanded way and using language to bait/incite a defensive response is clear to me and that is what I was responding to.

It seems obvious to me that starting a thread called "TTAC bashes First Gen MCS" and then taking the "bashing" quotes out of context to hammer home the point is certainly not simply sharing info like posting a thread with "hey read this review what do you think here is my take" or something less provoking. I asked why the baiting tactics here and elsewhere, and the rest goes from there.

So, just to be clear, I do get it; I don't mind reading reviews of contrary opinions at all, I do it all the time and give credence to those that appear to deserve it (and this did not seem to from the skew of the writing), but that is not what my point was - what caught my attention was noticing that Chows seemed to be posting like this and negative stuff about the car on various threads and I asked about it.

 

I find the fanaticism endearing. Yes, some on NAM refuse to find fault with their MINIs, but if it doesn't truly bother them then why burst their bubble? If they are happy with the car and if they think it's the best, so what?

However, I understand where you are coming from by bringing up articles and such that criticize the MINI and I appreciate the debate. It allows for interesting discussion.

I am personally very satisfied with my MINI so far. I realize it may not be the greatest car in the World but its perfect for me at this point in time. I'm not of the opinion that everyone must love MINIs. However, my big problem with the author was the attitude he had in approaching the article. He seemed overly skeptical coming in and it appeared that he was oozing with bias. In addition he took the marketing speak of MINI's go-kart handling waay to literally. IMO it was a poorly written review period. And it really has nothing to do with the fact that he didn't like the MINI. I read a few other reviews on same site and I found them to be dripping with the same sarcasm, bias and attempted wit as the MINI article. They would be much better served writing a straight forward article than failing in their attempt to be clever and witty.

I only agree with this statement to a certain extent.

 

I had done absolutely nothing to lessen the stunning impact of the hard/off-color plastics, the rattling components, the fake leather shifter boot, the peeling steering wheel or the cheesy looking silver highlights. I left my Mini au-naturel (interior wise).

From here on out, eVal and I will be on the lookout for friends who think the interior of the Mini is classy (memo to self - recruit new friends from Hyundai and Kia dealerships).

 

Fair enough. I've explained it and perhaps I could have thrown it out as just ... Take a look at what this guy says ...

Instead a pulled distinct quotes out for two reason:

1. Sometimes ppl don't want to take the time to actually read an article
2. It grabs the reader's attention.

Think of it as an Executive Summary. You read the Executive Summary and don't necessarily have to read the entire report and you get the gist.

Its just a literary style ... nothing more, nothing less.

I think we are down now.

 

I think one of the magical qualities of the MINI is the fact that you can take something not particularly designed to be a sports car and with a few tweaks, have something you can enjoy on the track. On the way home you can stop and pick up some groceries and then take three friends to a movie. The original Mini was not designed to be a rally champ in any way but with some modifications, it was. It's a kind of juxtapostion that creates a fanatacism in those of us who like the car. That and the "cute" appearance of the car give it a fun factor that I don't find in other cars. It won't appeal to everyone.

Even though there are a few valid points, I too, think the author had his mind made up before hand. For review of a product an open mind gives the best result for the reader and I don't think this one was open. But then....I'm one of the fanatics who thinks the MINI is a track car.

 

Shame on you.

I'm surprised he has just recently caught your attention. Chows has been implicated in several shady acts during his turbulent tenure here at NAM. I have pictures but they are not really suitable for this site.

 

I now know two things about you:

(1) You don't eat alot.

(2) You have at least two friends who are dwarves.

 

Nope, middle-aged chubby woman with chubby friends and family.
I didn't say they like it back there, especially when I take a fun off ramp.
You did notice the back seats fold down, right?

 

I would add to that by saying that although the MINI fails to be "everything to everyone" I disagree with those who say that it is trying to do so. Generally speaking the MINI succeeds in being something to everyone. That's why it has such a wide appeal. Its not the best at anything it does, but it gives its owners a good mix of a lot of different things like style, luxury, performance, utility, etc. MINIs don't appeal to everyone but that's one reason why I like it, it's different than everything else out on the road. It isn't the best at any given thing, but it has character and an appeal that reaches beyond demographic boundaries. I can't help but feel sorry for those who don't appreciate a car that dares to be different for under $50k. You don't have to love it, but at least show some respect.

 

 

You stated that the MCS is usually in the 7 sec range. Well that was true before 2005 models. Motor Trend clocked the 5' MCS at 6.4 sec.

Furthermore the non JCW MCS was Road&Track's record holder in the slalom in 2003.

"The centrifuge trophy goes to the Mini, with 0.87g of lateral grip, accomplished with Pirellis that have a 180 tread wear number — on the sticky side. And the Cooper S, a veritable slot car in the slalom, becomes the new record-holder; its manic 69.5-mph blitz deposes the Porsche 911 GT2, at 68.7."

In Car&Driver's Fourgasm 03' against modified Civics, Acura RSX-S's, A Neon, SVT Focus, and GTI, the Mini recorded the best road course time by 1.5 sec!
And Again against similar competition (including SRT4's) a couple yrs later recorded the best road course time among FWD cars.

Everyone that has been in my car has mentioned the handling. Lots of Wows coming from their mouths. I can't comprehend how someone can say it doesn't handle very well. I have also raced my car in auto-x and despite having only done it one yr came in the top 5 routinely. I guess the bottom line is....I know what I've got behind the wheel. There is no controversy there. That's all I have to say.

 

Please let us know what dead four-legged animal we are beating to death here?

Or did you use the wrong emoticon?

 

it's a cow

 

I thought it was a Doberman.......

 

Well, in two Minis we've never had the quality issues you speak of (but have had plenty of rattles in several BMWs) and I already addressed the appearance differences in the 03s vs the newer ones - don't like the old dash and silver highlights, change it to anthracite or upgrade to a newer one like we did.

You can try to poke fun at the people that like the Mini interior with the "Hyundai and Kia" references, but the hard and soft plastics of plenty of other 'nice' cars (Euro and Japanese) are IMHO no better, just blander and chock full of leather textured plastic surfaces

So now it sounds like you are saying that I'm right, glad you could come around to admitting it

We eat lots and use the MCS for Costco with no problems, what you do eat, bronto burgers?

And maybe I'm a dwarf in your book, but i've ridden in the back plenty, and its been fine - I'm 5'1" - a family member who is 5'6" was accomodated for jaunts as well.

Well, sounds a bit like a former owner or two being bitter now

And glnr13, yep beating a dead horse is at the heart of most forums, it is just the way it is, as always you can chose to read it or not. Short smilies/icon posts are one way to get your post count up tho