I think anyone can see the connection between an idiotic review of an MCS, and an article of a showroom stock MCS winning its class in the Nationals, which tends to underscore the falacy of the reviewer's opinion. But like others have said, all of these are opinions, though I tend to give more value and creedence to the opinions of those who actually own Mini's.

 

Here's a list of SCCA Stock Categories by make and model. This may be a year old, so don't take it as gospel, but it does give you a representation of what's in each class:

http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2006/stockc.html

The reason why someone posted the SCCA Nationals results is to point out that the MINI 'S' pretty much *owns* the G-Stock class. In the finals, I think 9 of the top 10 finishers in G-Stock were driving MINIs. That flies in the face of the TTAC article's claim that MINIs aren't suitable track cars.

Are there better track cars out there? Sure, - there are probably even better track cars out there for less money than the MINI, but the author makes it sound like the MINI has no place at all on any kind of track.

I took 1st place locally in the G-Stock Novice class last week (admittedly, it was against a field of less than a dozen competitors, and I had a better-than-typical day), but 1st is 1st, and that was on 17" factory rims and runflat tires, with a *convertible* 'S' that weighs about 300 pounds more than a hardtop MINI.

Scott

 

After reading his review compared to my personal driving experience it's obvious he simply isn't experienced with driving a vehicle like the MINI. His interpretation of Go-kart like ignores the word like (duh if you stomp on the gas mid corner in a FWD car it will understeer) My version of Go-kart like is the immediate response of the controls and the communication the chassis gives between the driver and the road so the drive wheels are irrelevent. The Supercharger lag isn't really a problem once you know it's there you can easily adapt and overcome. Same with the shifter throw (although I would like a shorter shifter that doesn't lower the shift **** in relation to the driver.) I suppose if you were used to driving AWD vehicles with high reving natrually aspirated power plants and some form of tipronic transmission the MINI would seem difficult to get used to but not everyone wants a Carrera 4S with an auto as their benchmark.

 

Showroom stock is a road racing (wheel-to-wheel) class. G-Stock (and the link you posted) is an autocross classification.

I tend to agree with Chow's rhetorical questions... The Mini is fast for an economy car. GS and HS, where the Mini's autocross, are the slowest autocross classes. Within the scope the SCCA's stock class autocross rules, even cars like V8 Mustangs and Z28's are generally faster than Minis. This is a fact, not my opinion.

This doesn't mean a Mini will never beat a faster car. But that's all about driving, not the car. A couple years back, our autocross club co-hosted an event with the Porsche club. Out of about 30 Porsches, I beat all but ~3 of them in raw time, in my stock 115HP Cooper. But that's just about me having a lot of seat time, not about the Mini being a superior car.

But anyhow, Mini's are fun and economical, and no less "track worthy" than any other car. I really enjoy mine, even more than I thought I would. I just bought it for autocrossing, but it has really grown on me. Is it the fastest car in the world? Hell no. Does that matter to me? Not at all.

 

THANK YOU. FInally a REAL list. Now if I understand this correctly, JCWs are in B class with 944 turbos, RX 7 Turbos, etc. They gotta be getting buried in that group.

But this is Auto X correct. I thought Gromit was talking about showroom stock RACING on the track?

And CONGRATULATIONS on winning ... Winning anything is always GOOD!

Now this I can relate to. In the mid-80s I owned a Porsche 944 that I heavily modified suspension wise for local autox. PCA ran autox and lots of local clubs almost every weekend at parking lots.

At one local event a bunch of 911 and one 930 Turbo, plus us lowly 944s were in a mall parking lot. Up comes some guy in a VW rabbit. Everyone wanted to see him run ...

The guy ran his rabbit faster than everyone including the 930. Everyone was in awe ... He was a "professional" driver, don't know who for and was so smooth.

Given the same driver, different cars ... one outcome
Given a better driver in a slower car ... another outcome

After watching that guy drive I knew I would never be that good just like going to watch the Pros play Golf. After watching some top golfers, I realized they were NOT playing the same game as me.

I think the lesson there is for the amateurs who think they are really good drivers ... unless you watch someone who does it for a living ... you dont know what a really good driver can do. They are in a totally different league.

 

You can tell the guy doesn't own a Mini. He's GOT to be jealous of all of us Mini owners...so his only recourse was to bash our babies. P.S. What a jerk!

 

Gromit did you post on TTAC?

He slammed your scan ... 33 years racing far more important than the car.

Fireworks. Small minority defending the car mightly.

One good comment ... the car is trying to be "everything" to everyone ... which means its doomed to fail (inherent in the sentence)

 

To me this says it all........article disqualified!!!!!

 

It depends on how you define "success" and "failure". The MINI will never be "best" at anything, but there is something to be said for a package that does everything reasonably well. The MINI will never be the corner-carver that the Elise is, nor a straight-line beast on the order of a Corvette or Viper, but it does enough things well enough that it's earned a widespread, loyal following. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I certainly wouldn't classify the car as a "failure".

Scott

 

I dont read that into it. I read what he is saying is that its trying to be everything to everyone ...

You go to a steak place ... do you order fish? Of course not
You go to an all-american family place ... they sell everything. But your not going to get a great steak

I think that is the analogy they are trying to say. IN other other words ...

Yes, it seats four ... provided 3 and 4 are children
Yes, it does fairly well being sporty .... provided you start modifying the suspension, dump the OEM tires, etc.
Yes, it gets good gas mileage ... provided you don't put your foot into it (I never got better than 25 mpg) and forget it drinking premium
Yes, it has good acceleration ... but so don't all the other hot hatches

I think those are the things its he is trying to say

BTW, he may be biased, dunno. And only one journalists opinion ... I agree!

 

Why would I want to post on TTAC?

I made the point I wanted to make. I don't care what else is said on TTAC.

 

Obviously I think the MINI is a capable track car, as I take mine there as often as I can.

But, I have driven a few MINIs that honestly do "plow" through the middle / end of a turn with massive understeer. I've also driven one (mine) that turns really well, but is getting close to the point of being twitchy. I've ridden in one (with PSS9 coilovers) that was incredibly planted and well behaved - but that's a $2k suspension upgrade.

The review was most likely written to elicit a response, and it has. "There's no such thing as bad publicity" for the writer, anyway. But, some of the comments in the review are not without merit.

 

Just wondering because someone pointed to your scan and pointed to your pic in photobucket.

Journalists response was to immediately discount it as the driver having 33 years experience and better had won.

 

ehh what does he know!

 

I am very realistic about my car. I have driven many other faster cars out there and have a high respect for them. That being said who cares about faster cars, honestly.

If you are trying to break speed records and be the fastest car in the class with the mini you are just barking up the wrong tree. Any real hp junky would just turn to cheap throw aways with lots of modding potential like the neon srt-4, etc etc.

The deal is, this guy tips his hand in his own writing. "Mash the gas in the middle of the corner???" Now I am definatly no pro at racing but i have been to skip-barber-dodge and mashing the gas to the floor in the middle of the corner was never brought up... hmmm strange.

I do think a few aspect of his article are correct. I mean yeah... the interior is not as cushy as a gm vehicle or a mercedes. And yeah, there are better track cars out there. I mean, we could all go buy mazda 3's or automatic transmission wrx wagon's (rolls eyes).... but then, you'd have 16 year olds pulling up next to you giving you the thumbs up revving their engines wanting to race to the next stoplight.

We all bought this car because it has the ability to fit a few needs at the same time:
1) style
2) some performance
3) mini herritage
4) the community
5) a decent auto crosser
etc etc.

If you have to question why you bought your mini or if you are so insecure that you have to always compare what it's faster then and what it's not... you either own the wrong car or you have really never "OWNED" a mini.

Any one who says that this car can't hold up on the auto cross track while still turning heads and giving you an all access pass to the group of crazy mini owners club, just doesn't get it... And that's fine, I'd rather they stay out of our little club anyhow. You all seem to be elluding to the fact that it's all about the driver and not the car... so what does the car's abilities really matter if it does alot of things well.

I mean i have driven open wheeled formula dodge cars that are awesome track cars.... but again... who cares, I'm not exactly driving that with the wife to go for a sunday afternoon drive.

 

Now that was a real defensive response.

He never said one word about autox. He said "track".

I dont understand why every one keeps bringing up autox when he NEVER mentions that (in his defense)

And he DOES have good points (eg. interior dash is plastic and tacky, car does have much understeer, etc.). Remember, he is talking OEM .... not aftermarket for the average buyer.

 

Tacky - that's not a given, its an opinion that many don't agree with - I don't, I think its fun and interesting, not tiresome and boring like so many vehicles that have interiors with as much style as an old grey tattered cardigan. And to go back to his original opinions about the handling, well plenty of other reviewers don't agree (and yes, about the stock car). Just because his words are online doesn't somehow give it credence.

So Chows, I don't get it - you seem to be posting negative stuff about the Mini in a few places then act defensive when people question it or have a different point of view, why?

 

My dash is carbon fiber and tacky, thank you very much.

(Of course, it's the JCW dash, so it's actually carbon fiber *over* "plastic and tacky").

 

Take it from me, a former review writer, that 99% of these peices are written prior to the actual test. This guy obviosly had it all figured out before he stepped foot into the car.
No, the MINI isn't a 'vette, Porche or a Lotus, but for under 30k, name a better car. The Civic? HA! I'll take a MINI anyday, and twice on tuesday.

 

Did you see the comment saying that the MINI is so much shorter than most cars, it is taller than most my friends go-fast cars, and my old civic is much shorter, they really have no idea, because they have never seen it lined up next to another car.

 

Don't confuse just posting an article written by someone else with my opinion. In general, I think the MINI is a GREAT car for the money. The fact is ... many owners close their eyes to the faults ... and you know this is well known. They can look over the quirks and reliability issues because of the Fun Factor. Sometimes the blinding loyality is actually funny. A balanced, holistic view of all the issues is always the best position rather than being an extremest hater (like the SUV haters) or the "MINIs walk on Water" crowd.

I can add to this the resale arguement. Sure a couple of years ago resale prices were great. Today, just look at all the people complaining about how little they are offered for their cars. Several recent threads in the marketplace. The boom is over but lots of ppl dont seem to want to believe that.

Point is, just because the journalist wrote it doesn't mean I endorse it. However, I do think the plastic dash is tacky and you know full well the first thing someone does is correct the understeer. In fact, its a bit sad that an enthusiast has to fix such a thing.

And so was mine In fact, I always thought I would never take the car again without the JCW dash!

 

Nonetheless, I think you know what I mean though - whether it is posting and then defending a negative review, or starting a thread about how a RAV4 is faster off the line, among other similar types of posts in random threads, the cant of it is disparaging and seems to be soley intended to create arguments when people voice a different opinion or say they find the info irrelevant...

I'll just take it that you are bored and entertain yourself baiting people and then having a defensive disagreement thread

(Uh oh, isn't that the definition of trolling :O).

 

Nah, I truly believe an informed opinion is much better than blind faith

However, shhhh, I might do that to Dr. O but just once in a while

Trolling is going into a BMW forum and telling them how bad the M3 is just to get a response. This was just an interesting article that happens to not jive with what people might think. Both sides of a discussion

 

I really don't think this is a fair assessment.

Since I've, ahem, "known" Chows, his posts have always been fair. Even when he owned a Mini he was pretty open about what it's limitations were.

- The fact is a new six-cylinder RAV4 is faster off the line than a Mini.

- The fact is that almost every defense of the Mini's handling is prefaced by saying "dump the stock runflats and boat anchors........"

- The fact is that a car is only as good as its driver. Siddhartha can murder faster cars at the track with his JCW because of his technique and the time he's spent behind the wheel. However, this does not measure the mettle of the car but the driver. You want to measure the mettle of the car, have the same driver drive the Mini against a Cayman or an STi at the track and then let's talk apples to apples.

BTW: I wish I had a dime for every time someone commented on how cheap the interior of my 03 MCS looked.

I bought a Mini, I tracked my Mini and I developed an emotional attachment to it. I thoroughly enjoyed that little car for 3 years. During that time I was not blind to its drawbacks and did not take offense at criticism of the car. I also did not think it was up to the same level as an S4 or an M3 just because I could pass on e at the track. Just because someone does not like the same things I do in no way automatically means their opinion is less valid than mine.

............and just because someone posts a negative article about the MCS on NAM does not make him a troll - especially when that person has been an active and prolific part of our online community.

 

But he did not simply post it, he defended it and argued with those that did not agree, and gave the reviewer more credit then others. As I stated, there have been plenty of other, IMHO better, reviewers that have published reviews that do no jive with that guy's take, not to mention experienced drivers/track users like dp. Also, the intent of the original post seemed designed to incite people by taking negative remarks abuot the Mini from the reviewer and quoting them.

And the RAV4 thing, really, if that is not a clear move to instigate an argumentative response what is? See it objectively, how would it look if anyone came onto a car forum and started a thread posting numbers from some other vehicle to try to make a point of some kind - isn't that the essense of a certain type of trolling being that is basically irrelevant and inciting? I know he is a long time member and all that, and I never said he was a troll but said the behavior was, by definition, trolling - truly different since someone who is troll does nothing but antagonize. Its a fine point but language can be that way, sorry if that was not obvious.

I just happened to realize at that point that I'd noticed a negative trend in Chows posts, questioned why and then called it as I saw it (with a smily mind you, I realize there is no real ill intent and none of it is dead serious anyway, really its all just a bunch of opinions flying around on a car forum). And remember, I'm not exactly a newb either and have been around forums for a long time, so I think I have a pretty good basis for my observations. But, as I always say, of course you're welcome to your opinion too.