Just looked through the latest Automobile.....
Sure, we're getting a turbo in 07, but no AWD, and a low HP limit (at least from the factory ). But

Mazdaspeed 3, summer 2006. 2.3 liter direct injection turbo 4, $25,000
VW Concept A, early 2008, twincharged 1.6l 4 w AWD.
VW R32, 250 HP w DSG, about $30k

And we've all seen the MCS JCW/Civic Si, New GTI "drive off" results, where the gap that used to exist between the Mini and other cars in handling has collapsed to almost nothing....

If MINI doesn't get it together, the only thing left will be "cuteness" to get sales.....

Just some heretical food for thought....

Matt

 

Well they are bringing out the Traveller to appeal to a wider cross-section of potential owners with families.

 

I just wish that we got more progressive "performance" offerings than the JCW set-up, and what's in store for power adders that we know of now.

Let's hope the tuners can really unlock the next gen motor, but with the hot-hatch market really heating up, I think there are going to be a bunch of really attractive alternatives for the next car in the stable....

Matt

 

I think MINI is focusing more on fuel economy, rather then higher HP. If someone wants more power, they will mod the car, but the average buyer, IMO, is more interested in saving money on gas. Yesterday I paid $2.99 a gallon for 91 octane fuel.

 

Yeah, I'm glad they are releasing the traveller too. A JCW (hopefully AWD) Traveller would be a nice mate for my R50 MC.

If MINI can up the ante in the handling department, reduce the weight with the lighter aluminum block, and produce power as easily or easier (I'm thinking partiuclarly of how easy it is to get to roughly 200 hp, but how much additional work it is to really make gains beyond that with the R53), then I think they still will have a good formula for success.

 

The current S blows for fuel economy! they have the ECU programmed to use fuel as "water injection"! The thing runs sooo rich!
I hope the turbo does better, but I'm not planning on buying one....
And the Cooper is for that market. The S should get more *****....

Matt

 

Agree with Matt...

Cooper S needs more *****.... we need more power for the "flagship" models... the JCW or other options should be addressing this point and they dont appear to be... only so much marketing spin, we need engineering power and/or serious weight loss

 

If you really want to be cynical, consider this: Let the tuners unlock the performance with aftermarket mods. That voids the warranty and increases profitability (for BMW).

I agree that, at a minimum, the market is going to get a lot more competitive for "premium" hatches (e.g., anything over $25k).

 

I just think the MINI is a car that has the appeal and heritage that no other "Similar" product in the market has. The VW GTI appears to be a very good car but it lacks that "something" the MINI has. Same can be said for the vast majority of Asian products.

Competition is good and MINI helped break the mold and brought down the old stigma of "Hatchback = cheap and boring". With ever increasing gas prices, the small car market is where the money is (Believe it or not). The American consumer has grown tired of the SUV fallacy and its ready to get back into high quality and more fuel effecient cars.

I think BMW so far has handled the MINI brand and product brilliantly. Almost 5 years later after it first was launched, the car is selling briskly and the factory is working around the clock to churn out as many as they possibly can.

Not every MINI buyer is into the "Macho" aspects of the car, namely performance, speed and track credentials. A lot of people are atracted to the MINI for its many positive virtues like fuel economy, looks, quality, engineering, value for the dollar, driving pleasure and solid resale.

Performance is an important aspect of the equation, but it is not the end-be-all of this or any other car.

BMW is one of the most successful car companies in the world and they are no idiots. They have created a niche with the MINI that many will try to imitate but very few will be able to successfully take away.

 

These cars, I am sure, are excellent all around machines. They just lack the "Cult" aspect and following of the MINI. How many times have people waived, honked or come to you to ask questions about your VW GTI or Mazda Speed 3? For non-enthusiast folks, these cars look like any other car on the road. Only the hard core fans know the difference between a GTI and a regular Golf or between a Mazda 3 and a Mazda Speed version.

The MINI catches the eye of both enthusiast and non-enthusiast alike. It has a following and a close knit community that is the envy of most other cars out there.

That "something" can not be created by adding more horsepower, AWD, sports seats, etc. That essence is very difficult to re-create and this is where the MINI has the total edge to itself.

 

I totally agree. A 400HP AWD GTI that sold for 25K still wouldn't get me to trade in my MCS.

 

because you couldn't get the handling and performance in any other package, (I had no special allegience to Minis before), why would someone buy a Mini if and when it doesn't have the specs of the other cars?

Now, I know that specs aren't everything. But when an optioned MCS can get over $40k, and cars that are starting to run and handle as well can be had for less, a huge slice of the market will have other choices. And some of them will buy the other marques.

Now, how many of the MCS owners would have bought their car if they had to accept less than equivalent performance compared to other cars in the segment? I wouldn't have. The reason I bought a Mini wasn't to harken back to the ralley wins of the 60s, it was to get a handling package I couldn't have gotten anywhere else, that could also be a daily driver!

I don't know if I would have bought a Mazdaspeed 3 if it could have run rings around a Mini, but I sure would have considered it.

If the sole marketing message is "almost as good as the other guys" at a high price, and just selling "image", then the days of the MCS as a performance leader are numbered.

Matt

ps, some of these posts are starting to sound like "defenders of the Mac" posts.... Now the Mac has a 4% market share, Apple is an MP3 and music company, and the new machines can run Windows! Don't flame me for this one, I have an iMac and Windows machines as well....

 

You left off the 300hp SRT4 version of the Dodge Caliber. When it comes to fun, fast, small cars, I say the more the merrier!

Horsepower is a lot like megapixels these days - having more of it makes for a nice marketing message, but there is a lot more involved in the overall performance.

I think MINI's appeal is based on the overall package. No matter how fast the competition gets, you'll still be driving an upgraded version of an economy car. That is great for many people, but I think there will continue to be plenty of people who will be interested in MINIs because of the style, heritage and driving fun they offer.

 

Very true; but I haven't seen where MINI is promising (much less delivering on the promise of) an expanded package (other than the larger Traveler...).

Those attributes applied to the MINI (and only the MINI at the time) were what largely drove MINI's sales success. There was a package which while it was not matched by other competitors, drove the continued sales success - 5 years is a very long time in the automotive industry to be able to sell your products at or above MSRP.... With the new offerings from competitors, I imagine that the second generation MINI will have a challenge to maintain the MSRP+ price model.

 

Then again it all depends on what is it that you are looking for in your next car. For some people, torque and horsepower (Straight line performance) is the true measure for any car (so they say). For them, the current Mustang GT is the ticket but at least the car has the handling to match all that power.

I think the problem here is that, for better or worse, a lot of folks are cross shopping the MINI with cars in segments that the MINI is not truly intended to compete with. Apples and Oranges. You see those comparos here in NAM and other MINI forums all the time.

I think it is unfair to compare a MCS a Pontiac GTO or Nissan 350Z even if all these 3 cars overlap at some point in price. The GTO and 350Z are more akin to each other (V6-V8 and RWD) than the MINI (FWD 1.6L 4 Cyl engine).

I think that if we judge the future success of the MINI based sorely on a price point perspective, then this conversation is going no where, because price overlapping is here to stay. You could say that you will get so much more "car" for the money if you purchase a Honda Accord LX over a base MCS. then again 2 cars that are totally different, have different market audiences, different performance benchmarks, yet they do overlap in price.

Now, the MINI is not for everyone. Some people get into the MINI for a very specific reason or another but they are not "in love" with the car. As soon as the latest and greatest car from competitor A or B comes out, the MINI becomes irrelevant, then you move on.

True you can spec a MINI to well over $40K, but then again, how many MCS buyers on average actually do that? Those are very few and isolated cases of customers indulging themselves with cars loaded to the gills. For me and most of us, the MCS is a car that starts finely equipped at $20K-$21K. My '05 MCS was around $22.5K and $24K out the door after all was said and done. Sure I could have picked up a then Dodge Neon SRT-4 for a hair over $20K but that "raw" performance is of not interest to me and besides, the Neon to my eyes was and will always be an aweful car, another mediocre Detroit attempt at the Japanese (Thankfully it is no longer made).

I personally don't think the MCS was ever a "leader" in performance. But is one heck of good looking car and a piece of automotive history. It all depends from what "lenses" you are looking at it.

I don't foresee any problems for MINI and BMW in the near future. The MINI remains a niche product with a strong following and community behind it.

On the other hand, VW has to pray and hope that the GTI is a success. VW is a troubled car marker and the sucess/failure of the MK5 platform could be the difference between sustained business in the US market or complete retreat and bankruptcy. VW has the ingredients to succeed, but quite frankly, the new cars look aweful. I hate the "toyota" copycat designs in the Jetta (Corolleta) and the new Passat (One of the best looking VW cars) has been totally ruined.

Best of luck VW, you'll need more than intelligent advertaising to move your dull sheetmetal.

 

Very well said!

 

Some people might even consider a Miata!

Matt

 

The MINI and the Miata (and Solstice/Sky) are cars that are completely different from the MINI. Again, MINI is FWD, 4 seater (2+2) fun "pocket rocket. The rest are RWD, 50/50 weight distribution 2 seat roadsters. last I check the MINI convertible is not sold or marketed as a direct competitor to new and established 2 seat roadsters.

 

He has a thread going about trading in his car for the new Miata!

Matt

 

Purists will buy a brand, but consumers generally look for price-performance (or whatever is their decision driver). I wonder how many purists there really are out there for the 2nd gen MINI?

Exactly! I don't think there are too many of the purists that bought a MINI for the "heritage" out there. Certainly not as many as have purcahsed the current gen MINI....

I would have to agree. Heck, my personal situation is that I am considering a 2006 MX-5 Miata as a next car purchase.... And it is not a car that can run rings around the MCS....

I just purchased a MacBook Pro for the ability run both OS-X and Windows XP Professional - nothing like having your cake and eating it too....

 

Ha! And the Miata doesn't even claim to run rings around the MINI!

 

I think the next 2-3 years will be very interesting in terms of developments at MINI and see how BMW will be able to cope with the ever increasing cut throat competition.

 

A lot of other companies are stepping up to the bar! I sure hope that the Mini stays competitive in handling/roadcourse arena. I don't need to see more HP than a stage 4zillion Neon, but I'd like to see the car stay a bit ahead of the curve on the slolom and handling front...

Matt

 

imho...considering how impractical a MINI is for daily tasks other than for
transporting no more than 2 people painlessly, i don't think you can
really classify vs other econoboxes that go for utility for the ordinary
consumer.

in that terms MCS should be compared more with coupes and
other non-utility cars like S2000's, Miata's, Solstice's and such...
not against larger hatchbacks or wagons.

 

As long as I can still get the handling of your $40,000 MCS in my $20,000 Cooper, I'll be all set.

I built my "next MINI" a few days ago... aero kit, JCW spoiler, and an overpriced second set of wheels and I was still close to $20,000. Of course the list of mods I'd want to do to it runs well over $3000...