Not saying all didn't know, but most and you have to agree. :smile:

 

dbirider -

Everything Edge said is right. Just also be patient through the break-in period. It's tough to wait, but think of it like you're responsible for doing the final portion of the car's manufacturing process. Once it's broken in, you'll be free to enjoy the top one-third of the rev-range, which is where it really shines.

After break-in, for fun cruising select a gear that keeps the revs around 5K. At that engine speed, the car is very responsive. And don't be afraid to rev to redline under acceleration. You are safely within the design parameters.

 

I’m at a loss to what you think double clutching is?

You can’t do it and don’t need to with a synchromesh transmission. Because you push the clutch peddle in a couple times, that’s not double clutching.

It’s only the vague idea of what double clutch is because you more than likely have never driven a car or whatever that you may have to double cluch to get in or out of gear.

 

Ya you know what it is.

 

I appreciate your willingness to further my education.

I have labored under the assumption that I was double clutching on downshifts. I have been depressing the clutch pedal, moving the shifter to neutral, releasing the clutch pedal, blipping the throttle then depressing the pedal again, selecting the lower gear and releasing the pedal as the revs begin to fall.

Follow this link for a decent description of the merits of double-clutching as I understand it: http://www.se-r.net/transaxle_clutch/clutch_not_to.html

And, if you would be willing, take a minute to read this one too: http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/dbl-clutch/Doublcltch.htm It's a little longer, but it gives a very good layman's description of the mechanics.

After reading these articles, if we still don't agree, I may need your help understanding the distinction you're making.

 

The only real use of double clutching in a modern syncromesh box is for the downshift. When you downshift, the entire momentum of the car is being forced onto that syncro. If your on the brakes when you downshift, the brakes take a lot of this force but the only way to nearly eliminate it is by double cluching. It's an amazing feeling when the gear lever slides effortlessly into the next gear down and you pop the clutch out without the car jerking.

 

What would be the point of double clutching when upshifting? I've never heard of that. It doesn't seem to make any sense.

 

But heel-toe does the same thing. I think heel-toe is 100% necessary during downshifts (street or track) but I don't find double-clutching necessary on the street at all. You can get a perfect downshift with heel-toe.

 

Totally correct

Syncros are there so you don't even NEED to double clutch downshift, or heel and toe. However, to make sure the syncros don't wear out as fast, and also making downshift smooth without "shock" when the RPM and transmission speed doesn't match, you can use Heel and toe or double clutch downshift to match the RPM of the gear you're down shifting into.

Heel and toe is by far the preferred method if you're braking hard into a corner and downshifting at the same time. Even if you're not braking very hard, it is still a good technique to match rev via heel and toe on downshifts.

Double clutching will still "work" on modern transmissions, it will still achieve the effect of matching the engine rev to the gear you're shifting into. However, since the syncros will prevent grinding gears on modern transmissions, you can achieve the same effect using Heel and Toe.

When should you use heel and toe, double clutch, or single clutch throttle blip on downshifts?

1. Braking hard, use heel and toe

2. Slowing down to a traffic light, or any slowing down that does not require the use of brakes, use double clutch to shift down a gear. With modern transmission you can also achieve the exact same effect without problems by pressing clutch in, blip throttle while you shift into lower gear, clutch out. (I call that single clutch throttle blip)

The point is, always try to match rev when you're downshifting, this will make shifting much smoother, and it will prolong clutch/transmission life as well.

 

Forgot to mention...I heel toe when I'm braking. It's just when I'm downshifting to accelerate harder that I double clutch.

 

Why.

You push the peddle in, pick the gear you want and release the peddle. Where is the double clutching - I'm at a total loss with this. I still don't think you know what double clutching is.

This guy knows what double clutching is.

 

What he described is the correct way to double clutch downshift. clutch in, shift to N, blip throttle, clutch in, shift into the gear, clutch out.

What you described is a normal downshift without double clutching.

Are you arguing if you need to double clutch or not? Its just a personal preference really, and not nessesary from a mechanical point of view on a modern transmission.

 

to save my brakes I seem to always take mine out of gear rev engine up about 1000 to 1500 RPM's above what I was just at and slide the gearshift into the next gear down (no crazy reving when I let clutch out) and it works fine for me...

-Josh

 

If i'm in 5th at 3000 rpm's and i need to quickly go around someone, I should put it in 4th, rev the engine to around 4000 rpm's and let the clutch go? Does that sound right?

 

Yes, that sounds about right. With practice you'll know what RPM you need to rev to for that particular road speed/gear.

This method is single clutch rev matching, and it works just fine in modern transmissions. On older transmissions without syncros people needed to "double clutch" downshift in order to match rev and not grind gears, but now all we need to do is to match rev like what you did

 

The part I'm having trouble with is matching engine and transmission speeds. I'm still a bit jerkey when downshifting (and I don't feel any difference between double-clutching with a trip through neutral and downshifting with single clutching).

Also, I have a lot of problems with first gear. I've even killed the car a few times starting out in first. First gear seems pretty picky. If anyone's got any first gear advice, it would be most welcome.

 

^^^ Making notes just in case I ever see this one listed in the "Marketplace" forum.

 

There's a lot of unnecessary confusion on this matter. I'll try to sum it up:


Double-declutch downshifting is exactly as eMINI describes. Heel and toe is a technique for accomplishing the same thing while braking. This is done to smooth the transition into a lower gear so as not to upset handling. It also minimizes wear. With a little practice it becomes second nature and eliminates jerky downshifts.

 

I'm one of them and I find this thread fascinating. (OK, I ordered my MCS last week and they're not even building it yet.) It's good to know I'll get support on shifting when I need it.

 

Thanks Squirlz Your summary is exactly what we needed to clarify things. If I could have said it that well, maybe some of the others would have gotten it.

 

I'm glad I found this thread as i was thinking about posting regarding this very question.

I'm technically new to a manual, as far as ownership, but I've driven many before. But now I want to try to perfect the "art" of manual transmission driving.

I've started rev-matching whenever possible, and also shifting into neutral if coasting/stopped for longer periods of time rather than holding in the clutch.

Can someone explain why holding in the clutch is bad?

My next goal is learn and perfect heel-toe maneuvers...

It seems, from this discussion, that with the MINI's syncromesh, all you really need to do is rev-match and double-clutching is merely an option (if one feels so inclined).

 

Under 20, I do know what it is, not sure why you think it can't be done, I know Nuzzo did at the Grand Am race in Daytona, that was an interesting radio conversation to listen to before the driver swap, the words do you know what double clutching is were muttered.

Just know not to do it, would like to hear the explination as to why.

I rev match as often as possible even just to reduce wear on the syncros.

 

That's correct O-RON. I've been autocrossing for almost 20 years now. I don't know anyone (except maybe the vintage guys) who "double clutch". It's very common for people on the various forums to confuse double clutch with heel and toe.

Rev matching is the key to all of this. You always want to try and match the revs when you're downshifting between gears to make a smooth transistion. If you don't, and you're driving your car at the limit on a race track, it can throw the car off balance by shifting the weight forward (kind of like hitting the brakes abruptly while turning and causing the car to spin).

Racers learned years ago that by using the "heel and toe" technique, that while entering a turn they could apply the brakes AND still rev-match for a smooth downshift. But the goal is always to match rev's to make a smooth transistion.

I'm not saying double clutching is good or bad, but personally I think its a waste of time to learn....unless you're just totally bored with shifting or something.

 

No - put it in third.

 

+1