Actually, it seems that is exactly what DSC is designed for:

"DSC constantly compares vehicle speed, wheel speed, steering angle, and yaw rate with a benchmark of plausible and optimum driving conditions' data. In a fraction of a second, DSC recognizes a threatening instability and a danger of skidding. The DSC system can correct an unstable driving condition by applying precise braking action to the individual wheels. As with ASC, DSC will if necessary also cut back the engine speed to automatically stabilize the vehicle."

I googled it and found this good article about how it works (also how it compares to ASC) in BMW World that I had forgotten about:

http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/dsc.htm

 

Anybody who thinks that mixing tires is ok, needs to have a warning sticker on there MINI!!! MINIs are not straight line, RWD, dragrace cars. They are a car W/ a very sophiosticated suspension, designed to let the car handle very well. It can not do this w/ mix and match tires. Any other opinion is an uneducated one that is really not welcome amoung members who know cars and handling.

 

I'm really glad you're ok.

Suddenly though, I don't want to hit the twisties on my way to work today.

Stuff like this just shows me super hard driving should be done on the track. Still though, it sounds like the tires really affected the dynamics of the situation. And I think you probably did the right manuevers given the conditions of the accident.

Unless I'm mistaken, in a traditional oversteer situation, more throttle is what you want to keep the car under your control. Correct?

 

LOL you just pissed off the majority of Mini owners - who bought it to be 'cool'

 

You know, this thread has really driven home a few important lessons.

Thanks for posting it, misfit03!

 

Maybe not welcome on other forums, but this forum is different. Not everyone is as dismissive as you are of people who know less than them. There are actually plenty of knowledgeable people here who recognize that the MINI is first highly capable car that many of us have owned, and who are willing to explain things like this patiently. It makes the community safer for everyone, instead of just alienating people as you prefer to do.

Has misfit03 learned his lesson and vowed not to mix and match tires in the future? I bet he has, but no thanks to you.

No, actually you just did.

Way to go, guys!

 

FWD, yes. lift=death

Okay, maybe not that extreme, but you get the idea.

 

Glad to hear no one was seriously hurt.

I wonder if this was the first time that that turn was taken after the front tires were replaced with a different set than the rears.

 

sorry to see that, and glad to see you guys walking away w/minor injuries. Being responsible has nothing to do with the age, so we can't point the fact that the poor guy is 18. I think it is a mixture of bad tire desicion, bad weather conditions and a moment of joy (that ended up in a small scale disaster). What happened is in the past, you gotta get the lesson and move on, are you getting another red or what?

Good Luck

 

misfit03, glad your ok man. I just saw this thread and realized it was you.

Hope you learned a lesson man. Next time your out on the wet roads running, use the DSC! If it keeps interfering with your driving, your most likely driving to fast, or need to smooth out your driving.


See ya around sometime yo.

James

 

Another MINI was wrecked in the mountains near Breckenridge, Colorado on Swan Mountina Rd. near the Dillon Reservoir on Saturday night, August 13th. The following day I went to the impound lot to check the car out but I learned from the tow driver that it was taken to the owner's home instead. I wanted to know exactly what happened.

When I'm driving my MINI I feel like it'd be near impossible to wreck. I guess I'l find the limit someday

 

I'm sorry if I made any members mad and I didn't say different opinions about mixing tires weren't welcome here. What I said that the opinions wouldnt be welcomed by MEMBERS who know cars and handling. You can put yourself in what ever catagory you like.:smile: Also Was not trying to alienate anyone. Just dont think it is a good idea to dismiss the danger of mis- matched tires. It is a dangerous practice.

 

Yes, good input here. There is really no reason to shut of the DSC on the street unless you are a stop light darg racer (yes, I've done this myself). The DSC has saved me more then once. It's wild how effective this system is. Quite amazing ...

 

Figured I would add my 2 cents to the tire issue of mismatching. I did it once and learned my leason. I had an Integra and the itiot who installed my two new tires put them on the front. About a month later I spun the car off the road into a tree.


On the flooring it once you began to slip, you did the correct thing, had you lifted off or braked your car would have spun faster making your impact speed greater which is really bad. I have spun cars a few times and on purpose many of those to learn what happens and lifting off or braking really speed up the spin flooring it slows the spin it is just important to know when to brake once you have completely spun.

 

You are one sick puppy.


Funny as he!!, and my kind of humor (something my wife doesn't understand), but you really need to quit pressing that degauss button so much.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I must say I'm skeptical. To me, there seems to be a difference between slamming on the brakes, easing on the brakes, easing on the accelerator, and flooring the accelerator.

DSC can do what the driver can not do no matter how much skill he possesses, because DSC can brake individual wheels, whereas a driver can just press a brake pedal. In this case, not pressing the brakes prevented CBC (corner brake control) from having an effect. CBC works in the same way that you can cause your shopping cart to turn in the grocery store by stepping on one wheel. Step on (brake) the inside wheel, and you get assistance turning in that direction. Turning off the DSC before the foggy, wet ride prevented DSC from saving the day.

Flooring it with DSC off will cause the front wheels to spin (endlessly) completely depriving the front wheels of traction too, and remember, the rears already lost traction. That means zero traction. Smack!

Who is to say that flooring the gas didn't cause the impact to happen at a greater speed than easing onto the throttle and turning into the direction of the spin?

It's all academic anyway, since it probably went down too fast to make a conscious decision.

Those in the know should certainly feel free to clarify for the group because, as I mentioned, I'm no expert. Just my common sense would tell me that easing on the gas would possibly regain rear traction without exhasorbating an already bad situation the way absolutely flooring it could do.

 

Tarzan has a good point. A smooth roll-on of power will be more effective that slamming the throttle to the floor. The car is already aout of sorts, and harsh movements will only upset it further. If you can get the fronts pulling with traction on the road, the rear will follow. If the car is halfway around, then it's to late. brake and clutch in, straighten out the wheel and hold on

 

Good Point!:smile:

 

So how much difference can be tolerated between a new set of front tires and a slightly worn rear set? Say the slightly worn is 20% off, but all 4 are of the same brand and model? Should that be ok?

And the new tires should always be put on the drive wheel, right?

Thanks.

 

IMO, there's no real answer to that question other than, 'it depends'.
Ideally you would always have full tread on all tires. Realistically, that will never happen.
The understeer school of thought says put the most worn tires on the front, as it is safer to understeer (plow) than it is to oversteer. In that case you never rotate your tires, and always (in the case of the MINI) buy two tires and put them on the rear.
I don't subscribe to that school, as I like to replace full sets, and don't want to feel compelled to purchase the same tires serially (I never mix tires.) I rotate every 5K miles and have yet to feel the rear get loose simply because I rotated them.

I understand the theory, but the conspiracy theorist in me says the understeer school of thought benefits the tire company by ensuring
a consistant revenue stream.

 

My understanding when a rear wheel drive car starts to spin out you are better to hold the throttle constant and steer out of the spin as best you can. If you brake or let up the throttle the rear end lifts and the you spin more. With a front wheel drive like a MINI if you brake or quickly lift off the throttle the weight again goes forward and the spin out is worse. A full throttle might work if you have great front tire traction and can pull the back wheels along out of the spin. But if the front tires lose traction the whole car just slides out of control. Maybe holding the throttle or easing off the throttle gradually would throw more weight to the rear to establish contract with the road again is the best way to go. A MINI racer would know the answer for sure. My two cents.

 

But even if he could have gotten or did get weight to the back wheels, the fact remains that his rear wheels were of a much harder compound. This alone might have been the cause of the slide...

 

True, but way before I bought my Mini I had driven other cars with stability control including my uncles Lexus and I will tell you first hand, You can still loose control espically with diff tires. Nothing can overcome the laws of physics. DSC will slow you down to a point and keep you in control up to a certain level. . Here is the site I checked out before I ordered my Mini. http://www.esceducation.org/about_esc/faqs.shtml If you scroll down to number 8 8. Can I drive more aggressively with ESC?
No. Aggressive driving is neither appropriate nor safe with any vehicle. ESC can only act within the physical limits of the vehicle. Unfortunately I didn't order Dsc with my mini and sometimes wish I did. But you are correct for about 85% of us. Unless we are going a good bit over the speed limit, we should all be safe with DSC "TURNED ON" lol again, it was most likely the diff between the tires that threw the balance of the car off and with DSC it requires you to have the same tires with proper inflation to work correctly in most situations. Happy "Safe" Motoring

 

--misfit I'm glad you're okay and your friend as well. I hope you don't consider this accident the Mini's fault in design though. I think this would have happened in any car had you put brand new or newer tires on the front rather than the rear. Here's what I know.

No gas station or tire retailer in Hawaii will sell you two tires and put them in the front. They will ALWAYS install them on the rear due to liability reasons. The fact is that if your rear tires have less traction than the front tires in any amount there is a high possbility of them swinging around and or spinning your car out of control. This is true in both dry and wet conditions.

While lurking on the Nissan Murano forums I learned of one gentleman with a front wheel drive Murano who lost control of his Murano in the rain on the Highway going STRAIGHT. He had done a similar thing and put brand new tires on the front but not the rear. He accounts of going straight on the highway and suddenly feeling the rear start to swing out and the next thing he knew he was spinning on the highway at 60MPH! He ended up in a ditch with minimal damage to his car but he was terrified of his car after that.

This also happend to my cousin in the 80's while he was in college and short in funds. He had spun his Mazda 323 in some equally terrifying conditions before his brothers chipped in to buy him another pair of decent tires.

I'm surprised that this practice on putting the newer tires in the front hasn't been made into law or an ASE requirement in all shops at least in U.S.

In anycase I hope misfit reconsiders re-joining the Mini ranks and that everyone gains a little knowledge fron his unfortunate experience. Drive safe everyone and warn your fellow Mini drivers if you see shiny tires up front and dull worn ones in the back.

--pyratio

 

Tarzan and all that followed with the same question.

I am also no expert but i've been autocrossing for some time now. Most driving schools will teach you at an autocross or track event that "If you spin, both feet in" because most of the time people who try to get themselves out of situations will usually just get themselves into bigger problems.

But if you go to a car control clinic or into some advanced racing, they will tell you when a FWD car starts to oversteer you throttle out of the spin while keeping the front wheels pointed in the direction you want to go in.

I run a stiff rear sway bar on my MCS to get some rotation for autocross. I've had the car completely spin on me and i've also had the rear end start to slightly come around on me. 95% of the time in Autocross i'm in 2nd gear, and i've learned with the car that if it starts to slide i can jump on the throttle and pull her out with no problem. Now unless you have some pumped up super MCS pushing 250+ HP your not going to spin the front tires in this situation. The car is just too heavy and doesn't not have enough HP or TQ to spin the fronts while doing 40mph in second gear.

Yes they always teach you to apply all inputs quickly but smoothly, but in a pucker situation like that jumping on the throttle hard was better than jumping on the brakes or completely lifting. It would have also been just as good to have just kept the same throttle position and attempt to steer out, but again most people tend to overcorrect in these situations.

Thing is, i doubt msfit is an autocrosser or track junkie and probably had no previous experience with the car in a slide before. So for it to happen to you for the first time in an emergency situation will usually end in this result. So many people would benefit from a few autocrosses and learning the limits to their cars and how they act at the limit.

Next time, KEEP YOU DSC ON! Unless your at the track or have a need to do a burnout you have no need to turn it off! Your lucky your insurance company didn't find out you had disabled the DSC because they might give you hell for disabling a safety feature.