Dchop,

Have you driven both cars before? First a standard MCS is faster to 60 and to 1/4 mile than the Scion. 0-60 numbers for the Scion are typically in the 7.2 to 7.5 seconds. And for a standard MCS for 05 is somewhere in the 6.3-6.5 seconds. The numbers throught the slalom are quite a bit different, with the MCS consistently getting through the cones much faster than a Scion. No one I think would knock the quality of Toyota products. But Toyota's approach and BMW's approach to creating cars is worlds apart. Except for the first two years of production (which only had minor problems) the Mini is extremely reliable with no problems, especially the '05's. Toyota produces an antiseptic driving experience which is totally safe, predictable, and "sterile". While BMW produces a much more driver's enthusiast feel. A lot of people enjoy the enthusiasts feel. You just can't compare the driving experience between both cars.

As far as more power, you are coming from the typical hp numbers is everything perspective. The Lotus Elise only has 170hp, but blows the stink off most every car within $50,000 of it's price range. The mini does 0-60 in mid-6's which is quite respectable for a compact hatchback, beating most of them out there. The use of the supercharger provides a very linear power respones and makes it much more enjoyable and fun to drive, compared to a Vtec kicking in at 7,000 rpm. Every test I have seen between the Focus ST170 and Civic TypeR, shows the MCS beating them, in both numbers and feel. Obviously these are Euro reviews, but these cars are a step above the SVT Focus and the Civic Si.

And I can't even guess where you are coming from the twincam and turbo comments. These are silly arguments. Those are only your opinions. Some people like the whine of a supercharger more than a twin cam. Some people like the 400hp corvette engine, much better than a twincam.... And you better clarify you statement about turbo's. For the dollar value they can put out more, but I have seen plenty of 1000+hp machines with blowers on them.

Overall, the Scion and MCS aren't even in the same league. And you get what you pay for. A Scion stock is $15000, and a MCS stock is $20,000. The MCS is well worth the $5,000 extra and there is a long line of people waiting for one to prove (a line even after 3+years of being released).

 

To return to the topic...

I've read all of the previous posts, and I haven't seen any reference to the upcoming CAFE "pedestrian-impact" laws. From what I've read, that's the predominating force that's changing the shape of the MINI. I think it sucks, but apparently the issue has as much to do with impending EU laws as it does with making the car less expensive and more variable.

FWIW, I think all the reasons suck, but legislation beats driver complaints every time.

And I dare any physicist here to tell me that 2500lb of metal can find a way to warp in such a way as to not harm a 150lb soft-tissue person.

 

i apologize, i didnt mean to sound soo crude. to tell you the truth, when i 1st saw release fotos of the Mini i wanted one soo bad. I loved the style of it and saw it as a potential car that i would buy. i was obsessed with it, every time i saw one i went crazy...then i saw the price, and everything changed. It is just too expensive for the type of car that it is. and i mean c'mon...30K for a Mini CS or a JCW, honestly, that is a bit much. (i brought up 30K cuz someone here actually paid that much). with 30k one could buy an Evo or a wrx sti which have proven themselves time and time again in the wrc and are just as fun to drive. If BMW does plan to stuff a turbo in the upcomming model and a twin-cam engine (which is what i've heard), im curious as to how much HP and torque it would put out. If the price stays at around 23-25 grand with a kickass suspention and more power (i would like to see a lil over 210 in the MCS) then it will be well worth it IMO and i would sooo get one ASAP.

 

I liked the MOKE

 

I think it's safe to say that a lot of people on this board paid over $30K. In fact, almost everybody who got a MCSC paid that as a base. It's not about what you could have gotten; it's about what you wanted. The MINI can be priced higher than other cars because it is a premium brand. Owner fanaticism, style, and pedigree all tie into it. This is rather like the old Mac vs. PC question: why would you buy a $2K Macintosh when you can get a similarly capable PC for under $1K? Well, some people just prefer Macs. Don't go trying to tell them otherwise, either: you're likely to take a beating.

I'd be willing to bet there's a LARGE correlation between Mac users and BMW/MINI owners. It's not that we love to waste our money and get mediocre results: we see value where others do not. We see a product we can love, rather than a utilitarian device. We are QUIRKY.

As for your horse-power desires, you should not be disappointed. There have been rumors that the 2.0L engine on the MCS (MCT?) will produce 250BHP, with the MC producing more than today's stock MCS.

Personally, I don't give a d*** if they power the thing with anti-matter. It's not attractive. It's a PC masquerading as a Macintosh. It's a Radius Mac.

And, without getting too snarky, if the MINI is so anemic compared to WRX's and other rice-burners, why do MINI's keep winning auto-x and TSD rallies? It's not random. We have righteous-bad-a** cars. Even those of us with Coopers. I may not be able to beat a WRX off a line, but the turns I take leave them in the dust - or sometimes in the ditch.

 

who cares if the mini gets replaced? you have 2 years to pick up one of the NICE bodystyles now before the new bigger minis come out.......

 

Yeah, that's frustrating, but here's what you could do. First start a new thread, 'cause I don't mean to hijack this one. Maybe title it, "help me figure out how to get a MINI." My response would be, check out a used '02 MCS or an early '03 with the original sport suspension that was too stiff for most folks. If you're patient, you'll find one between $17-20K. Then put an after-market pully on it and an intake. You'll have a car that out-drives almost everyone on the road for a pretty reasonable price. If you want to know what it outdrives (stock), check the post from 'littlehandegan' near the end of the 2nd page of the "S000 versus Mini Cooper S" thead.

 

I guess I am one of the "sucker" that paid that much. But you know what, if I am going to spend the amount of money required to buy a car, I am going to buy the one I want. After all, I will be driving it for a long time.

You are speaking as if the MINI is an unsuccessful product. The sales in the U.S. have blown away all expectations and continue to climb. I just don't understand when you say BMW has a flop on their hands. If sales were flat, I would think you were on to something.

To compare it to the "popularity" of the Tc is ridiculous. I test drove one (immediately following their launch) and could have driven any of the 3 available off the lot. But, both my wife and I were underwhelmed. It was a good car, but not great at anything (just like all things Toyota). Don't get me wrong, I love them, I'm on my second Toyota Truck. Point is - the latest reports show that the Tc is not blowing away the sales figures, and this is part of the reason. Would have wasted $17,000 because I would have bought a car Iknew I would have been unhappy with.

The sti, which by the way, you cannot buy new for $30,000 just doesn't do it for me from a styling standpoint, and don't get me going on the styling of the evo. There is more to a car buying decision than just hp.

You can't replace the fun factor, I liked it when I drove it, I knew I had to have it. It was the car I wanted. Hopefully the next gen MINI will do that to some people, I like mine the way it is.

 

I have an '05 MCS with fairly loaded with the JCW package, and I paid $29,000 out the door with taxes and everything. Is it a little on the high side, yes, it is starting to get there. But you are looking at almost $35,000 out the door for a EVO. That is $5,000 to $6,000 more than my car. The EVO is a great car, but no where near the feel of my car. You get a souped up rental car. That is all it is. And acceleration is not a whole lot great in real world terms. The numbers in the magazines don't give you the whole truth. The low 0-60 numbers are achieved by almost blowing up the car. You will burn a clutch in no time getting 5 second 0-60 times. The true numbers are in the 5-60, and you might be suprised at what the EVO does compared to the Mini. The gap becomes much smaller. Add to the fact that the EVO does have turbo lag and it makes it aggravating, compared with the much more linear response of the Mini. The EVO is a great track car, but not such a great daily car in my opinion.

Unfortunately the Mini doesn't always get compared well in the mainstream US magazines. They keep comparing it to a Beetle or a PT Cruiser. I don't know what these car magazine editors are smoking, but they obviously don't know how to push the car. The only real reviews I see of the Mini being raced and pegged against higher end cars is in magazines such as Grassroots motorsports or the euro mags. Unfortunately many US people don't get to see those.

 

That was a good post. You got a deal on your MCS/JCW! Mine is really loaded and it was $37,018 out the door. (Mine has no automatic, and a center speedo)

I am an engineer. I take a serious view of any mechanical device and I have no use for hype or BS to excuse sub-par performance.

On my first trip to a MINI dealer, I almost had to be dragged in there. I had read the tests and the articles and just ASSumed that the car was a cute powder-puff "poser-mobile". After that initial test-drive (of a 2004 model), I was hooked. There is some aspect to the MINI that the test numbers just don't convey accurately. I like a bargain as much as the next guy (probably more since I'm a notorious tightwad), but the MINI IS worth the price.

I tested a WRX STi ($32K+tax) only one or two days before I ordered the MINI. It was FAST, but the response of that power wasn't linear nor as controllable as I liked. The STi makes fantastic numbers, but I just didn't like its "feel". I also strongly disapproved of its looks as well, but that's a separate issue.

Here's the list of cars I drove and considered (all manual transmission):
Pontiac GTO, Lexus IS300, Jetta, Infiniti G35, Maxima, some mid-size Acura, WRX STi, Cadillac CTS, BMW 330Ci, BMW 540i(used), and the mighty M3.

Out of that list, there was only ONE car that I liked better than the MINI. The M3. I considered the 330Ci to be a virtual tie with the MINI. (Bear in mind that this informal competition was to see which car would make Big Daddy Rawhyde happy. Not terribly scientific, but...)

If I was wealthy enough, my solution would be to buy the MCS/JCW exactly as I ordered it AND a Silver Gray/Natural Brown M3 with a traditional 6 speed. I'm not wealthy, so I didn't do that. I was forced to consider price in the equation. While I wanted the M3, I didn't want it $20,000 more.

Daillestchop, you do make some good points about the price/hp ratio. I wonder if you have spent much time driving and experiencing the MINI. This goes against my nature, but there is SOMETHING about the MINI that the numbers aren't capturing accurately. I have never cared for FWD and went into my initial face to face meeting with a MINI with a very skeptical mind (almost closed mind), and the MINI won me over.

Go drive an STi, then go drive an MCS and report back to us. Just don't do any full throttle drag strip runs. Drive it like it was real life. Get on the freeway, get in traffic, do some stop and go, etc. Try to simulate real life everyday driving. Be honest and tell us if the MINI or the STi is more fun to drive except for the brief moments when the throttle is mashed to the floor.

Rawhyde

 

Rawhyde,

I really like the M3 and am planning to buy one as soon as I can (another year or so). I drove a lot of the cars that you drove and was hooked on the GTO. Ugly as all get out, but the interior was pretty decent, and I was aching to just try out an old pushrod V8. Not very sexy I know, and maybe a little too macho, but I don't know something was attracting me to it. Especially at the end of last year with the unbelievable sales on them. $7,000 off and 0% interest for 60 months. I almost bought one. Now the 400hp ones look pretty interesting.

 

I had a brief fling with GTO too, just to keep perspective before I pounced on an MCS - In my case, GTO would have stood for "Go To Office" though... and then there's my friends with problematic/expensive (cheaply constructed?) Grand Ams ...

Peace

 

Look at the sales number. The Mustang would have died if not for the pukey Mustang II. I too think it sucked, and they didn't do emmisions well (a 302 Cu in motor doing less than 150 hp!) BUT sales numbers skyrocketed, and it was a really, really good front suspension set up (there are many a custom car with MII front ends). So if that dog (remeber the one with all the ghastly decals) could save the Mustang so that it could become the car is was and is now, I'm all for it.

Say what you want about change, and add reading materials about product lifecycles to the list as well.

What we really want to hope for is a relationship between the Mini community and BMW. Did you know the MX6 (Ford Probe) was supposed to be the next Mustang? When they got in touch with the Mustang enthusiasts, most said "if you make the Mustang a front drive car, we'll never ever buy one or a Ford ever again!" Ford listened, the Probe became the Probe, and the Mustang stayed rear drive.

Change is inevitable. Embrase it, and try to guide it, but to just say "stop time and don't change a thing" is wishfull thinking, and a bit nieve... Sometimes they do things right (like the car we drive now, and the 05 Mustang looks good as well....)

Matt

 

I agree that it is just criminal what BMW is planning to do with the next generation Mini... . As compensation for all of the stress and anxiety these plans are causing for current Mini owners (just read this thread), I demand that BMW offer us the opportunity to trade in our used 02-05 Mini for a new Lotus Elise. Drop off the Mini, drive away in an Elise. That seems fair, right?

 

Huh? My MSCS (ordered) is loaded up, and I'm under $29k...

 

My JCW came in under $27k. Limbo, limbo.

 

I sat in the prototype today, and it is not pretty. The outside is worse. You are correct that they have time to iron out the look, and that what was part of what the "vehicle evaluation" was about today in NYC.

But keep our emotions in check? Hello? This is not a Kia website. You just noted that people on this board tend to be passionate about cars.

BTW, do you work for MINI/BMW by any chance?

regards,
Red

 

Here! here! I'm keeping mine as long as possible. New motor? Bring it on! I'll shoe-horn one in the old beast in ten years or so. Longer wheelbase? 4 door? Traveller/Estate? Cool! I'll need something to take to the Hardware store! Beets having to buy an esuvee. :smile:

Yup. Times move on. We be special now, ja?

 

Ja!

regards,
Red

 

I'm not sure what I'm going to do in 3 years.I may keep my 03 MC,or I may get a next gen. one.But I'm going to wait till I see one in person,and will probably wait a year or so after that to hear how they are before I pass judgement.

 

Beware the little man behind the curtain (in the BMW jacket) he's managing your expectations, and not even paying you for it... You dare defy the WIZARD????!

$.02, and I'm not even a Marketing major, but I did play one once, back in college,

Tatt

 

They did give me $100 plus free parking in Manhattan today.

regards,
Red

 

Do you want to go back to carborators? Want to give you your ABS? How about air-bags? Side Impact protection? What's the deal here? Rigid unibody construction? 17 inch wheels? All these criticisms are so pessimistic.

Well, I don't think BMW has made every decision well, but you can't argue that they don't know handling...


So, are we all going to **** and moan about how they MAY screw up the car? Or are we going to do something posative to try to cooperate wiith the changes that will have to come?

If you read about upcoming legislation in Europe, you will KNOW that the car will have to change. Embrase change, try to guide it where you want it, and ride the wave.

And go easy on the new guy! His TECHNICAL points (except for some comments on the tC) were right on! This is an expensive little car, to make and to buy. What's so wrong with pointing that out? Or that the motor IS only a single overhead cam, and how about admitting that the 0-60 time in the 05 is from what everyone thinks is a better than average Mini? What about the fact that for a car, in an age of computer controlled machining, comes out of the gate with a very wide range of measured HP?

I love my little car, but it's not perfect. Let's not put it on a pedistal and lie to ourselves that it's perfect. It's not (remeber all the motors that died in the very eary cars?) Or what about the transmission seal problems in very cold climates? Or the fact that almost every 02 needed it's rear hatch ajusted, or that you can't put the eggs in the top of the grocery bag with the rear seats up unless you want to make an omlet in the back of your car?

Why don't all that complain about the wrongs that they are so certain BMW will force on us write a nice polite letter to BMW pointiing out the features you want to see in future versions, and the items that you don't want changed. I myself an more of a blower man that a turbo man, but what they hay, if I get one in the future, it may have a turbo....

So, I still don't understand why this thread is so negative to the future (the new 6-speed was designed in by all these people who are going to "ruin" our car), and so harsh to those that point out our little cars flaws....

Oh well, human nature....

Matt

 

You must be a movie star or something then, for the free parking .

I should have mentioned that i COULD get a c-note or 2, if I refer a MINI sale to my dealership! I think the referral BONUS will still apply in '06, '07, etc.

This topic does little to subtract from my own personal MINI drive-gasms,
Tatt

5-seconds after posting Edit: LMFAO @ hey luddites, ^5

 

Mis post, sorry.