Both?? I see four individual crimes in that sentence. Multiple counts when you start combining them.

 

Of course not! The track is a totally different beast, because that is a controlled condition. Tracks are maintained well, you drive the same path over and over again, so the conditions are exactly the same, and you don't have to worry about opposing or merging traffic!

DSC is intended for unexpected circumstances. I would never suggest it is a good track tool!

 

that those that shut off the system for the street, either by hand, or by the DSC defeat curcuit, will never be convinced by the statistics to do anything differently. Also, it's easy to induce the "disarming" behaviour of power cut when you don't want it, so that bugs everyone. It's not often that you really do need the DSC to intervene, so the amount of times it works to save one's butt are relatively infrequent compared to when power dies. So all the dynamics of it's operation re-inforce that it's a crap system when in fact it's really quite competent.

All the same crowd says it sucks, I turn it off all the time, I did driver school and know how to drive just fine etc every time this comes up (just like the same group points out that it's only the traction control on launch that's an issue, the fact that the system can reach parts of the performance envelope that no human can, and that it's for the unexpected, not the expected that the systems are on the car!) I guess the sad truth is that those that want to know something about the system have to wade through the two sides jousting to learn anything.

What I find interesting is that there are so few who actually paid to get the problem fixed (MTH basic). Even if there's no power to be had, the mod is worth it just for the traction control mods! So there are tons who buy lots of parts, some of dubious value (and remember, I test a lot of parts so I have a bit of an idea here) instead of just fixing the issue with the system as implemented. I guess because you don't see the part, it's not as compelling. And for most, they don't see this as a peformance mod (but if you want to stop-light drag me on a rainy day, you'll see nothing but my tial lights as I accelerate through the tire slippage!) so it's not very compelling.

Hay Crashton! Next time that class is scheduled, PM me so I can go! Then I can ditch my DSC as well

Matt


ps, if this really is the DSC thread from hell, then the previous posts to some actually data should be in here somewhere. If you really want to learn something about these systems, either dig up the post or Google "DSC crash statistics" or the like and start reading.

 

the two crimes i was referencing where, driving in the left lane and using the phone while driving.

 

and if the SUV is passing in the left, it's not a violation (if they're not speeding, that is!).

Anyway, Not sure what that had to do with DSC....

Now back to the never ending debate about DSC held between the two sides that will never change their minds!

Matt

 

Thanks for the clarification on the ASC and DSC difference. I always thought that the ASC was separate from the traction control.

Excellent post Matt.......wish more would read it.

I have tracked my car and have never had a problem with the DSC on. Never got slow enough to have the traction control come on. But it did do it's job the last time I was on track. Went into a 2nd gear corner a bit hot and the DSC kicked in and the car simply went where it was pointed to. Felt really weird to have the car kind of "sit down" and adjust it's line all the while I am braking.

No complaints for on track use.......just hate the traction control in 1st gear !

 

That DSC is going to give you slower lap times if it's intervening, IE driving for you. Turn it off for a session & see if you are faster. I bet you would be.

If the Electro Nanny is driving for you, you'll have a hard time learning to drive for yourself.

 

I think it would depend on the track. I only have been to one track (PIR in Portland, OR) and it is a fairly fast track with only 2 real hard braking areas. As long as I was set-up for the corners properly I never even had a "moment" to worry about. My limited experience on track days has shown me that a properly handling car won't need much in the way of "additional" input from the driver to get a good lap time.

I do take exception to the comment that I will have a hard time learning to drive for myself. The DSC allows me to get to the limit of my cars handling much quicker than without. By being able to explore the traction limits of the car without really putting myself in danger it allows me to really learn the proper line a lot faster. DSC will probably slow me down if driving a car that really needs to be "thrown around" to get a fast time, but how many times have you heard drivers say that smooth is quicker.

 

Likewise, try driving a lap or two with it on, and see how intrusive you think it is.

It will depend a lot upon the track surface. Rougher tracks will trigger the DSC more because the tires will lose traction more often. Tracks with low speed turns will also trigger it more as you will get some wheelspin on exit.

But, on a fast, smooth track, the DSC doesn't do much. It will let you get a little bit of trail braking / 4 wheel drift in a turn if you do it smoothly.

Yes, I'm faster on a track with it off. But, not by much.

I bet many people have one bad experience with ASC / DSC when over-doing it with the gas pedal from a stop and use that as an excuse to claim it's awful and never turn it back on again.

To those people: why not try it again? You might be surprised.

But then, I drive a Cooper (not an MCS), so my judgement is obviously flawed.

 

Can't turn it on if you don't have it. 300 miles of twisting back road driving in SE Ohio showed me I didn't want it. I was at the wheel of a friends 2004 MCS equipped with the Electro Nanny.

The first thing I did when I bought my car was to install an Ian Cull circuit to kill the ASC.

 

I meant no disrespect. You are finding what the DSC thinks is the cars limit. It is programmed with real world driving in mind. Not driving on a track. It's there to save someone on the street. The limits are to low to allow for the fastest lap time. Driving with it on my well keep you out of trouble as you said it did when you over cooked it. I contend that it will hold you back from going as fast as you can, on a race track. You are learning the DSC's limits, not your cars or your own. There are some very sophisticated systems out there that let a driver push the envelope. MINI doesn't use one. Wish they did.

Edit.... You are 100% right smooth is fast.

 

If you are on a track, you are already someplace the car was not meant to be.

If you are driving around town fast on dry pavement, well, you are F***ing around and you should turn off DSC. After you are driving 40mph on a road that you do not own and it is not a oval or whatever track, the DSC will asist you not die if you can keep your wits about you and point the car to safety.

everyone thinks they have comic book reaction times. They do not. in the rain or snow or ice, if you arent an agressive moron, the dsc/astc can help you maintain a decent speed and control. It really does work. I also have limited slip differential and a 6 speed. The limited slip works well with the DSC/astc in bad weather, but it is the electronics that work best to keep the car straight.

 

The van full of kids is just as bad.

 

I do not have comic book reactions, whatever that means? I'm just a regular old human, although some of my friends think I'm a toon. What I have are the skills to drive my car safely. If you feel you need an electro nanny to keep you feeling all safe & sound then that's what you should have. Not everyone needs, or wants them nanny's. Now that LSD was money well spent, IMO.

 

bingo.

 

What exactly are you saying here? Some of it doesn't make sense.

 

Boy you just don't get it do you.......DSC does not intrude in anyway on the track if you are a smooth/consistent driver. You get it out of shape and it will help you keep it on the hard stuff. I would love to see how you apply braking to a single wheel to assist you in changing direction in an accident situation. Remember turning brakes........think of this as automatic turning brakes engaged when needed.

 

No, sure don't get how people let a car drive for them. Why learn car control & drive to the conditions?? I hear this a lot "I have DSC & it will save me". Oh come on!!! If what you say is true I'd have been killed by now. How do I manage to lap other MINI's on a wet track without that darling electronic security blanket you love so much? My guess is that damn thing is slowing them down. But then again it could be that I have good car control skills.

 

I turn it off after the first lap on the track when the tires are warm, on the street I leave it on.

 

Keep telling yourself that...! It might actually come true soon
You keep missing the point. It won't engage until you are out of control. Not even your superior car control will keep an out of control car out of the kitty litter. Be smooth, be fast, don't throw the car around and DSC will never intrude on your drive. Oh and by the way.......passed plenty of WRX's at my last wet track day myself.

 

By that argument, you may as well drive without a seatbelt and without airbags too. After all, you haven't been killed yet. Who needs 'em?

I gather when you ride a bike, you go without a helmet too? After all, you have survived this far, it must be worthless.

Totally silly argument.

 

Edge...Thanks for trying to save my life. I'm doing fine with that nanny.

Yep I wear seat belts. Don't do bikes.

Scott.... Man those WRX's must have been driven by some poor drivers. In traction limited conditions they should run away & hide from a MINI.

Thank goodness MINI gives us a choice. Security blanket or not. I chose not.

 

I'm merely trying to point out that your logic was seriously flawed. Hopefully you can see that.

 

Oh gosh yes, now I see it....

Should've said WITHOUT that nanny.

Man that was a close one.

 

everyone respects your choice to not like the systems. But you keep talking past the critisisms. You have yet to answer truthfully about the fact that the DSC systems can do things that no human, no matter the training or skills, can do. The notion that driving to conditions will prevent all unexpected road situations is laughable at best. The deer don't phone you to say they're jumping across the road..... I think the critiscm of your posts would die down to nothing if you really said what youre doing:

"I, Crashton, choose to give up the benefits that the system on the Mini can provide because I don't like the trade off between intervention and safety."

That's fine and all well and good. But to say that these systems are useless to those that have good driving skills is pure BS, plain and simple. Edge pointed out the logical flaws in your position (the flaws are there, independant of the subject under discussion), you ignore that as well.

Personally, I've learned to understand where you're coming from and what you prefere. But there are those out there who don't have your experience or perspective, who might actually assume that the system is junk, provides no additonal safety, and actually is dangerous to use! And none of this is really true. So, fine if you don't want DSC. Just explain why fairly and truthfully. Wouldn't it be sad if one day you learned of a newbie driver who on thier death bed from an avoidable accident said "Crashoton told me it was crap....". Totally extreme, but you get the idea.

So you do track stuff and hate the system. Fine. There are others who go out on the track and love the system (OK, not love, but don't hate!). Fine. I've looked at lots of studies, and none really have the data we all crave: What does DSC systems that have some issues (like the Mini) really do to to the safety stats of skilled drivers? There are no data sets that I know of that address this question specifically. But the data sets that are out there show enough of a benefit from DSC equipped systems that it's a fair assumption that they help even those that have good skills in driving!


The great DSC debate will continue on and on, I'm sure. It's just too bad that a lot of the perpetuation of the discussion is based on BS and subjective opinion expressed as objective fact.

Matt