R50/53 need some direction for track performance increase
Private college is a scam anyway! Hell, public college when out of state is a scam as well. Don't even get me started.
From what I've seen, its cheaper to pick up a Mini and make it competitive than it is to pick up other vehicles that are already at that level. And I agree with this statement above. Even if you did pick up the vehicle that is better from the start, you're going to mod that one as well. So, I guess with all of that said, buy the car you love the most, because no matter what you're going to throw money at it. Might as well enjoy the money you're spending.
And to add on to this conversation, do those that take their Mini to the track on a regular basis put that much more emphasis on handling upgrades? I understand that no matter how much power you have, its worthless without being able to put it to the ground efficiently. But are you guys avoiding major motor work?
From what I've seen, its cheaper to pick up a Mini and make it competitive than it is to pick up other vehicles that are already at that level. And I agree with this statement above. Even if you did pick up the vehicle that is better from the start, you're going to mod that one as well. So, I guess with all of that said, buy the car you love the most, because no matter what you're going to throw money at it. Might as well enjoy the money you're spending.
And to add on to this conversation, do those that take their Mini to the track on a regular basis put that much more emphasis on handling upgrades? I understand that no matter how much power you have, its worthless without being able to put it to the ground efficiently. But are you guys avoiding major motor work?
So in my example of the S2000. The motor, exhaust and intake are so massaged from honda that you don't really need to touch it. Most aftermarket exhausts make insignificant to none HP/tq increase and are only a mild weight loss that increases your visibility to cops. Same thing with the intake. Maybe some people might bring the vtec engagement down with a vtec controller or a reflash but for the most part the fast guys tell me that you can spend cash and not yield a single tangible ounce of power.
In the s2000, the limiting factor is not even the suspension, for 99% of the people out there it's the driver who can't drive the car to the limits.
Add an oil catch can for right hand high speed high g load turns to stop vtec blow by, braided lines and tires and go explore the limits.
With the mini it's different, it lacks power, it understeers, it body rolls - the stock brakes get overworked. But you can't really do things 1 by 1 because it exacerbates other problems.
For example the stock mcs is a little anemic on power, so you shrink pulley and add an intake. But at the same time you need to add colder plugs. But in order to take advantage of all of that, you need to retune and reflash to make big power gains, but if you are going to do that you need bigger injectors.
Now you have the power to spin the wheels and you can't put down the traction, so you go with coilovers in order to put down the power. The car can now put the power down, but because of the macpherson front strut setup, you lose camber as the suspension compresses, so you need camber plates and control arms in order to get more negative camber (which still doesn't eliminate your positive camber gain under suspension compression).
So now your car handles on rails, but the problem is that now the strut towers are in danger of mushrooming so you prudently pick up an m7 strut brace with plates to protect the strut tower from mushrooming.
I am not going to address the brakes, brake lines and tires because all cars, regardless of how expensive they are desperate in need of pads, blanks, high temp brake fluid, some home depot ducting, braided lines and some Star Specs, RE-11s, azenis Rt615k, RS-3s, 595RSRs or nt01s.
The mini is like an ecosystem and needs to be addressed in whole to make a reliable track car.
Totally agree, and unless your are specifically chasing your friend's S2000 even if you change cars there is always going to be a group of faster guys and gals. It won't be long till you'll want that S2000 to be as fast as those Porches. Speed and competition is highly addictive. Welcome to the club. Start practicing the speech for why your kid can't go to the private college they got accepted into.
I love being able to bring the most under powered platform to the fight and letting skill speak for itself. My miata doesn't count because it's closer to a spec miata than it is to miss daisy's roadster.
Hopefully, coilovers/camber plates, will cure the need to reinvent the mini for awhile.
I am dreading the thought of cracking open the tranmission to replace the diff. accckkkk at least 30 hours in the garage!
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 216
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From: Damascus, MD
Another reccommendation
You have to address the brake fade, either you're pushing too hard out of frustration and over cooking the brakes or the cars and your capabilities at that track exceed those of the brakes. No matter what it is no fun if your brakes can't last a track day.
But another thought as to assessing the capabilities of the car is to have it driven by a good instructor. I remember when I first started, being convinced I needed to make a lot of changes to my car (then 97 Integra GSR), until a friend and instructor took me around the course a couple of times to demonstrate what the car was capable of and it was more than I ever expected.
That doesn't mean that the car wont benefit from improvements just gives a better idea of what benefits driver improvements will yield. I agree that the last run of the day is frequently the hardest I've always blamed fatigue and increasing expectations, but I also know that personally once I'm frustrated it's all over and like golf if someone hands you another club and says here this will fix it it usually does, for a little while.
But another thought as to assessing the capabilities of the car is to have it driven by a good instructor. I remember when I first started, being convinced I needed to make a lot of changes to my car (then 97 Integra GSR), until a friend and instructor took me around the course a couple of times to demonstrate what the car was capable of and it was more than I ever expected.
That doesn't mean that the car wont benefit from improvements just gives a better idea of what benefits driver improvements will yield. I agree that the last run of the day is frequently the hardest I've always blamed fatigue and increasing expectations, but I also know that personally once I'm frustrated it's all over and like golf if someone hands you another club and says here this will fix it it usually does, for a little while.
Last edited by rough68fish; Nov 30, 2012 at 11:14 AM. Reason: english
"I love being able to bring the most under powered platform to the fight and letting skill speak for itself." Well-put, GPToyz!
I've been on road courses for something like 35 years in a variety of high hp vehicles, Mustang Cobra-Vortech, Cobra R's M5's, etc. and came to realize a few years back that you can have just as much fun in a well-prepared MCS as the big bucks/high hp guys. I'm an instructor and run in my group, get passed quite often, but the view and sounds are excellent. There's a lot to be said for driving a well-prepared car to the best of your ability while not getting caught up in the "Latest and greatest" craze. I see so many try it and get bit in the tail when their limit falls short of the car's! If you've ever been chauffered around a track by a really good, professional driver, you come to realize just how much you have to learn.
I've been on road courses for something like 35 years in a variety of high hp vehicles, Mustang Cobra-Vortech, Cobra R's M5's, etc. and came to realize a few years back that you can have just as much fun in a well-prepared MCS as the big bucks/high hp guys. I'm an instructor and run in my group, get passed quite often, but the view and sounds are excellent. There's a lot to be said for driving a well-prepared car to the best of your ability while not getting caught up in the "Latest and greatest" craze. I see so many try it and get bit in the tail when their limit falls short of the car's! If you've ever been chauffered around a track by a really good, professional driver, you come to realize just how much you have to learn.
I just got done with a 2 day at streets of willow and want some performance improvement advise.
Day #1 Streets of Willow CW; best lap 1:31.7
Day #2 Streets of Willow CCW; best lap 1:33.4
I'm a little frustrated at how sloppy my mini is around a turn and how much wheels spin and traction loss I'm suffering around a tight little track like streets of willow. I'm not concerned with the mini's lack of power as I knew that getting in the car. I've listed the current configuration of my car below and I'm curious as to what I can do it to improve the performance of the mini to the point where I'm able to drive against other cars in my group skill level without being a speed bump.
I went to Streets of Willow at WSIR with my friend who owns a Honda S2000 2005 AP2 generation, also a daily driven street car with the configuration listed below. Both cars are fairly comparable interms of being modded, it's not like one is full blown track car and the other is a grocery getter.
I was so annoyed at the mini being so outgunned in clockwise, that my friend let me drive her s2000 in the advanced run group. I have extensive track time at streets of willow having been there on bikes and in previous track cars, but it was my first time driving an S2000 around streets. I am aware of the s2000's ability to bite the driver with snap on oversteer so I was tip toeing until I built the confidence to push the car. After 2 sessions, I was able to lay down 1:30.035, basically on the cusp of braking into the 1:29s and definitely with room for improvement.
On day 2 I ran 1.5 sessions in the mini before I gave up on it and exclusively drove the s2000. I have significantly less track time in the CCW configuration and I was able to put down 1:33.035 on the mcs before I felt that the brakes were done (pedal to the floor entering the bowl at triple digits is not comforting. On the s2000 I started at around 1:36 and dropped time each time out until I reeled off a single laptime of 1:32.067 on my last session with the sun going down. Typically, the end of the day is where my worst times are on any machine as the tires/track get cold, weird shadows develop on the track and of course the crazy winds start rolling in. I definitely know there is significant room for me to improve in the s2000 as I was just learning the car and the configuration, whereas the mini felt like the car was asking for mercy. Apparently my friends said that there were periods on the track where they witnessed the mcs going 3 wheeling.
I'm curious as to the setup required for my car to consistently make 1:27-1:29 feasible and what the cost will be to achieve that mark. I know relatively stock s2000 can run that all day long.
2005 Honda S2000 AP2
Aero: Honda OEM CR Trunk & Wing
Wheels & Tires: Stock AP2 size with 215/45/17 & 245/40/17 Hankook RS-3 Brakes: Carbotech Xp12 & Xp10 pads; centric premium blanks; RBF600, stoptech brake lines
Suspension: stock
Bracing: stock
ASM 70mm exhaust
My current mini's configuration:
Stock ECU
15% Pulley; jcw plugs
Bracing: 22mm adjustable progress rear sway bar; m7 front strut brace; TSW x brace
Suspension: stock
Camber plates: stock
intake: alta v1
exhaust: m7
Solid Mounts: tsw engine mount, powerflex upper, lower and trans bushings
Wheels: ASA Revolution 17x7
Tires: Hankook RS-3 215/45/17
brakes: oem R53 calipers w/ Carbotech Xp12 front; carbotech xp10 rear; centric premium blank rotors; motul rbf600; stock lines (waiting on my WMW braided lines)
BAFFLED/trap door oil PAN!!!!
My r53 04 is a daily driver that needs to survive me and 2 dogs, 1 full size dog and 1 pint sized dog. That said I'm not entertaining any straight track prepped car configurations, but I'm very tolerable to losing ride quality in the sake of better track performance.
Day #1 Streets of Willow CW; best lap 1:31.7
Day #2 Streets of Willow CCW; best lap 1:33.4
I'm a little frustrated at how sloppy my mini is around a turn and how much wheels spin and traction loss I'm suffering around a tight little track like streets of willow. I'm not concerned with the mini's lack of power as I knew that getting in the car. I've listed the current configuration of my car below and I'm curious as to what I can do it to improve the performance of the mini to the point where I'm able to drive against other cars in my group skill level without being a speed bump.
I went to Streets of Willow at WSIR with my friend who owns a Honda S2000 2005 AP2 generation, also a daily driven street car with the configuration listed below. Both cars are fairly comparable interms of being modded, it's not like one is full blown track car and the other is a grocery getter.
I was so annoyed at the mini being so outgunned in clockwise, that my friend let me drive her s2000 in the advanced run group. I have extensive track time at streets of willow having been there on bikes and in previous track cars, but it was my first time driving an S2000 around streets. I am aware of the s2000's ability to bite the driver with snap on oversteer so I was tip toeing until I built the confidence to push the car. After 2 sessions, I was able to lay down 1:30.035, basically on the cusp of braking into the 1:29s and definitely with room for improvement.
On day 2 I ran 1.5 sessions in the mini before I gave up on it and exclusively drove the s2000. I have significantly less track time in the CCW configuration and I was able to put down 1:33.035 on the mcs before I felt that the brakes were done (pedal to the floor entering the bowl at triple digits is not comforting. On the s2000 I started at around 1:36 and dropped time each time out until I reeled off a single laptime of 1:32.067 on my last session with the sun going down. Typically, the end of the day is where my worst times are on any machine as the tires/track get cold, weird shadows develop on the track and of course the crazy winds start rolling in. I definitely know there is significant room for me to improve in the s2000 as I was just learning the car and the configuration, whereas the mini felt like the car was asking for mercy. Apparently my friends said that there were periods on the track where they witnessed the mcs going 3 wheeling.
I'm curious as to the setup required for my car to consistently make 1:27-1:29 feasible and what the cost will be to achieve that mark. I know relatively stock s2000 can run that all day long.
2005 Honda S2000 AP2
Aero: Honda OEM CR Trunk & Wing
Wheels & Tires: Stock AP2 size with 215/45/17 & 245/40/17 Hankook RS-3 Brakes: Carbotech Xp12 & Xp10 pads; centric premium blanks; RBF600, stoptech brake lines
Suspension: stock
Bracing: stock
ASM 70mm exhaust
My current mini's configuration:
Stock ECU
15% Pulley; jcw plugs
Bracing: 22mm adjustable progress rear sway bar; m7 front strut brace; TSW x brace
Suspension: stock
Camber plates: stock
intake: alta v1
exhaust: m7
Solid Mounts: tsw engine mount, powerflex upper, lower and trans bushings
Wheels: ASA Revolution 17x7
Tires: Hankook RS-3 215/45/17
brakes: oem R53 calipers w/ Carbotech Xp12 front; carbotech xp10 rear; centric premium blank rotors; motul rbf600; stock lines (waiting on my WMW braided lines)
BAFFLED/trap door oil PAN!!!!
My r53 04 is a daily driver that needs to survive me and 2 dogs, 1 full size dog and 1 pint sized dog. That said I'm not entertaining any straight track prepped car configurations, but I'm very tolerable to losing ride quality in the sake of better track performance.
It seems that you should fix the problem of not being able to slow down before you fix the problem of not being able to go fast enough.
If you are cooking the brakes with the setup that you have, what's going to happen when you try to take 5 more seconds off your time with springs, shocks, swaybars and R-comps.
When you get to higher levels of driving the single piston caliper brakes on the MINI can't handle the work. The cast iron caliper can't dissipate the heat and cooks the fluid. The single piston puts more force on the inside pad than the outside and over works that pad which puts even more heat into an already over heated caliper. You can put in all the cooling you want and you won't fix the problem of uneven pad usage.
Forget all of that suspension and tire stuff and get a good set of brakes...My favorite:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/mini/kits-16/
and it won't brake the bank.
Then do what everyone else has said.
And my final 2 cents:
- get spacers or wheels with a 38mm offset. The MINI really loves a wider track.
- Put in a larger front sway bar along with all of the other stuff. Ok...I am a minority is this opinion but I have drive both the stock S and an S with the sports suspension on the track and in autocross and the sports suspension with the larger front sway bar is far more capable and it is not just the stiffer shocks and springs. The stock suspension has too much front dive in corners. A larger rear bar helps, but you are trading rear wheel traction for front. When that rear wheel comes off the ground you are down to 3 wheels of traction and you may be rotating when you don't want to. You can improve that with stiffer springs all around, but the best way to improve roll stiffness is larger sway bars front and rear. If you search the autocross discussion you will find that the hot stock setup starts with the JCW suspension, keep the large front bar and put in a larger rear bar.
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