Dave,
The tone of the letter is "frustrated". Using historical MINIDivision
behavior, they may become even more defensive (or less receptive). I think
the letter should elaborate more on why NAM members can help MINI
better than MINIDivision ever could. Our intricate and resolute
communication within the Forums allow for quick and accurate diagnosis and
effective solutions that MINI Engineering would never find in a timely
manner otherwise.
I've owned many automotive marques in the past; none of which have the
electrical complexity or advanced technology of the MINI. There is a price
to pay for pushing the envelope, and in the case of the MINI, it's lots of
basic mechanics on top of cutting edge electronics bugs. While the advanced
technology aspect of the design is excusable (Stumble and the other ECU
software issues still unresolved), and allowable to have post-release fixes;
the mechanical aspects (windshield, coolant tank, bypass valve, shift
linkage, bonnet scoop, seat mechanisms, boot latch) are unacceptable for a
parent company so renowned for their mechanical integrity.
MINIUSA is in a bad position, in my view. They set themselves up with
excellent marketing and pre-sale, but did nothing to assist post-sale, and
all but released an unengineered prototype of a product to the public.
Combined with an undeveloped service network and undertrained mechanics,
this leaves the customer with a proverbial bad taste in their mouth.
What's worse, is the reliability of the MINI is variable; my first
Cooper S was literally perfect; whereas my second Cooper S is riddled with
problems (Yo-Yo, horrible paint quality, absurd interior panel rattles and
squeaks, and relatively poor fuel economy versus the first MINI), all
leading to an unsatisfactory driving experience, and subsequent Lemon-Law
pursuance. I have a feeling MINIUSA will have to change its' slogan from
"Let's Motor" to "Lemony Fresh" if they do not invest in improving the
engineering quality of their vehicle.
MINIDivision seems to be the result of a meeting-gone-bad in the PR
department. It's simply a case of the "left hand not talking to the right".
There needs to be more collaboration between MINIDivision and MINI
Engineering, with MINIDivision being the liaison to all customers that have
design and/or reliability concerns with the MINI. Simply providing
reference numbers so the telephone operator can provide yet another canned
message "go to your dealership", obviously don't fix real problems.
MINIDivision needs to recognize between a dealership-fixable problem, and a
design flaw, instead of the current umbrella they employ.

I hope that provides some insight,
Ryan

 

My first wind screen is being replaced tomorrow at 9am. Believe it or not it passed the ball point pen test. The first tech did the pen test and told me to call my insurance company, but after I put the wiper arm back down and it covered where he said the grain of sand chipped the glass, we had someone else check the glass. A total of 3 other people checked the glass and the deceision was made to cover it under the warranty. :smile:

I agree with the other NAM members that a grain of sand should not crack a wind screen, but what can a MINI owner do, when its the dealer who make the deceision to replace or not and its the dealer who bears the cost. I understand the dealer is compensated from MINI USA, but I imagine they must bear a portion of the cost, either in parts or labor.

Wish me luck that wind screen number 2 lasts longer than 1900 miles.

'04 PW MCS COMPLETELY STOCK. DON'T SELL IT IF IT DOESN'T WORK.

 

parzifal wrote:

>>i've yet to speak to a disgruntled Mini owner, the biggest complaint of whom is, in my experience, that they can't afford/wait to have another one.<<

I'm disgruntled. Just for the record. I applaud Dave's effort here, but I have precisely zero confidence that it will have an impact on MINI, who have shown themselves beyond a doubt to be just another cold, calculating corporation with no interest in sacrificing even a miniscule percentage of the bottom line for the satisfaction of having lived up to their promises.

_________________
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." -Oscar Wilde

 

I have patiently sat on the sidelines. Not being a MINI owner means respecting those that have committed personal wealth to the cause. I put the $1,000 down two years ago on an unseen/undriven MCS and after waiting 6 months gave up and bought a 2002 VW GLI. 24,000 miles later I test drove a MCS and a rediculous low offer for a 9.5 point GLI trade-in killed the second shot. Now I learn that MINI-BMW has not learned anything since 1985 when my 325i was a nightmare with repairs and declined warranty work. Being a member of the over 50 crowd, I remember MGAs, MGBs, Triumphs, and one exceedingly strange Hillman Minx - all British cars built in jolly old England. The common joke of the times referred to the reason the British drink warm beer was that they all owned Lucas refrigerators - a reflection on the extreemly poor quality of Lucas electrics of the time. Now I am sad to say that the real reason the British drink warm & flat beer is that their refrigerators are now made by BMW/MINI.

All I can do now is wait for the 2005 and see if MINI has learned anything from the current problem plagued MINIs. A sincere thank you to all the current MINI owners, let's all hope that MINI has learned from their mistakes.

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

My windshield just cracked few weeks ago.

Service Advisor did pen test and told me to take it up with my insurance company. Told me there was no cracking problem he knew of.

Performed a search on this website and MINI2 under "windshields", printed out results and took back to dealer. Went back to dealership............

In front of about five other people talking to service advisors, asked again about the windshield problem. When he said he still hadn't heard even a peep about it, handed him the printouts. He quietly handed them back to me and got the service manager.

Windshield was fixed under warranty next day.

If every person on this website signed a petition on the windshield, the yo-yo etc. and sent it to Mini, with cc copies to Consumer Reports, Edmunds, the Major Car Magazines and insurance companies, this runaround would end.

 

Ryan,

You make some excellent points.

You're right about some of these issues being excusable (ECU) and others
being hard to comprehend (have they never made windshields or coolant
tanks before?).

The problems that really require MINI (not MINIUSA) involvement to fix could be
managed so much better if MINIUSA would just help people understand the
time table and the constraints a little better.

For example, a plastic part takes:
- _ weeks to engineer and prototype
- _ weeks to test
- _ weeks to competitively bid the part
- _ weeks before production parts are available
- another _ to _ weeks to distribute those parts through the dealer network.
Therefore, the absolute earliest parts could be available is _ months from now.


As far as why/how NAM members can help MINIUSA, I think a lot of members would really like to have MINIUSA ask our opinions on how to better serve their larger customer base.

There should also be a motivation on the part of MINIUSA to have satisfied MINI customers. We understand there are going to be issues, but better information about when we might see a fix is reassuance that the company "gets" that our satisfaction is important to their repeat business (either by purchasing another MINI or a BMW).

 

please understand, i'm not a shill for Mini. just saying that i love the car, and have met others who feel the same. perhaps i'm living in a fool's paradise, and had i checked this forum prior to purchase, it may have given me pause. however, i think much of the scrutiny here is due to the fact that Mini is an "enthusiast" design, and, as such, viewed under a more uncompromising lens than a Jetta, say. yes, there are problems, and i don't like being Beta-tested any more than anyone else. but if you had to do it over again, would you buy something else?
i wouldn't.

paddy

 

parzifal,

I think we ALL love our MINIs here! That's what makes it all the more frustrating not to get better post-delivery service. Wanda is my second MINI. Yes, I love MINIs so much, I bought a second one. I can still express my disappointment at how I've been treated by the service advisors at certain dealerships.

I do not think anyone considering purchasing a MINI should buy another marque. Not at all....once you drive a MINI, nothing else is as pleasurable to you! I think Dave has given the post-delivery situation a lot of thought and I am grateful to him for airing his views openly on this Forum.

Clo/Wanda

 

>>please understand, i'm not a shill for Mini. just saying that i love the car, and have met others who feel the same. perhaps i'm living in a fool's paradise, and had i checked this forum prior to purchase, it may have given me pause. however, i think much of the scrutiny here is due to the fact that Mini is an "enthusiast" design, and, as such, viewed under a more uncompromising lens than a Jetta, say. yes, there are problems, and i don't like being Beta-tested any more than anyone else. but if you had to do it over again, would you buy something else?
>>i wouldn't.
>>
>>paddy

Paddy-Well said! Yes, I have had a few windshields, but not much else. No, I can't find another car I love as much as my MINI. Every day it reminds me that drving can be fun, and the MINI serves fun up in spades. :smile:

 

Hi, I'm from Mini USA and I'm here to help...........


.......make sure your warranty isn't worth the paper its printed on. Unless, of course you want to give us another $6,000 for $1,000 worth of performance upgrades.


Why do you think that so many of us are willing to throw away our warranty in order to drive the car you should have built?

And you're going to pay me how much to put your sticker on my car?

 

I couldn't agree more; I keep looking for another sub $30k sports car that has the feature and performance resume' that even approaches the MINI, and I can't do it.
I was enthralled with Mr.Motor, having zero reliability or drivability problems (the stumble doesn't count as it was pre-V36). I'd like to believe MINIUSA's efforts in solving the Yo-Yo are authentic, but their PR leaves me cold. Even if I am forced to Lemon MM2, I will still get another MINI. I'm not sure if it's wishful thinking, or dedicated; perhaps a bit of both.

 

Very well stated. It's amazing the way MINI lets issues and its dealers (which should be more tightly controlled than most manufacturers, considering the small number of them). I've had two co-workers that were eager and ready to buy a MINI who came to me and asked for my opinions and experiences and I had to temper their enthusiasm. Fun car...quite a few nagging problems...and any issues are further compounded by dealers that often try to put up smokescreens around issues (perhaps as directed by MINIUSA?). Although, as stated, I don't know if MINI would even flinch to something like this. After all, they've got a car that's still in extremly high demand so they'll probably continue to cruise on marketing for awhile.

 

MINIclo,

i agree with you (and others) completely, and hope i haven't given the impression that i'm granting MINIUSA carte blanche to be unresponsive or in any way negligent. i'm just inclined to temper my criticism with my abiding love of the car. yes, they have a responsibility to get it right and respect their customers, and that's why it's important to stay on their case. without question. i just don't want to see the relaionship become adversarial. perhaps i've been lucky, and the other shoe simply dropped yet. we'll see. in the meantime, i'm grateful for forums like this, and hope that our voices will be heard by those who are actually in a position to get MINI's quirks and inexplicable design oversights sorted out.

paddy

 

So, are we going to start taking bets on when/if MINI Division is going to respond to this thread?

Myabe Jack Pitney will come down from the mountain and speak to us personally. I'd say 1,000 to 1 on that.

Any response from MINI Division, I'd say 50:1.

 

>>MINIclo,
>>
>>i agree with you (and others) completely, and hope i haven't given the impression that i'm granting MINIUSA carte blanche to be unresponsive or in any way negligent. i'm just inclined to temper my criticism with my abiding love of the car. yes, they have a responsibility to get it right and respect their customers, and that's why it's important to stay on their case. without question. i just don't want to see the relaionship become adversarial. perhaps i've been lucky, and the other shoe simply dropped yet. we'll see. in the meantime, i'm grateful for forums like this, and hope that our voices will be heard by those who are actually in a position to get MINI's quirks and inexplicable design oversights sorted out.
>>
>>paddy

We only hope there will be a response to this topic. But don't hold your breath because you might die before they respond.
:smile: :???:

 

Ryan,

Been reading your posts on quality issues with MM2 compared with MM. Blubelle is a 9/02 production MCS, manufactured at a time when it was unclear if the MCS was going to be a big seller or not in the USA. Blubelle is much like MM, in that we have had a trouble free relationship for the last year and a half. Methinks that rather than there being major engineering issues with the MCS, this looks more like the result of too many 24/7 production runs. Overly tired and stressed employees making unacceptable quality errors during assembly. And all due to the runaway success of the MCS. When we bought our cars back in '02, the MINI was still an unknown oddity on the roads of the USA. I think that TIJ raised levels of awareness regarding MINIs in the minds of the general population, bringing more customers, but putting much strain on the new company's production and service capacities. MM2 may be a vistim of that success. BMW must either, curb production levels back to acceptable QC levels, or expand production through the creation of new assembly lines and hire more workers. I believe that they are engaged in the latter.

 

At least MINI Division NEVER responded... now that's quality

 

>>At least MINI Division NEVER responded... now that's quality

Why should they? Really...


You think they are going to respond on an internet message board? You got to be kidding me...

 

>>Dave,
>>Good letter but you might want to give it another quick edit before you send it to MINI.
>>
>>While the facts in your bullet points seem to be well supported, you should consider editing your absolute statements and removing your clever bits. While I can understand and even defend your frustration, things like "totally mishandled" and pat on that head reference kind of undermine the accurate and reasoned portion of what you write.
>>
>>It's been my experience that I've done better without flaming my reader. Specifically, I've had a mostly positive experience with MINI USA and me dealer in engine stumble and windshield repair problems. Stick to the facts and you'll help us all out. Thanks for taking this on.
>>Ken

I agree 100%

 

>>Why should they? Really...
>>You think they are going to respond on an internet message board? You got to be kidding me...

In case you missed it the first time:

Gotta chime in here - just because a user of this forum works for MINI (or alleges to) does not mean that anything they say or do is on behalf on the organization. If their actions or words were meant to be representative of MINI, they would be followed up by a service bulletin or press release. The fact that "MINIDivision" is anonymous speaks volumes.

It's hard to build a credible complaint based on your interactions on an enthusiast website. If these communications were with the official MINIUSA representatives, then I'd say you have something.

If I visited a forum based on my companies product and apologized for a problem someone was having, it would be completely inaccurate to characterize my post as a corporate admission regarding that problem.

Just had to add my perspective.

 

>>I'm sure MINI USA will be back and I'm sure their answer will go something like...
>>
>>"I’m with MINI USA. Sorry to read about your problem. If you want our assistance, please phone us at (866) ASK MINI and mention Reference # 900406400112."
>>
>>

And if they do What if all 12,294 members did call??

But seriously, has anyone taken pictures of their cracks (no not that one) and show MINI that they are all starting from one or two areas? A friend called while i was reading this and his crack started by his VIN plate. If a lot of them are starting in a couple of areas that will show it is a stress problem not from a pit. With 80 pits in your window the crack is bound to hit one or two.

earl LOVE MY MCS

 

I have contacted MINIUSA several times RE: the windshield problems, Answers include, "have not seen the problem.. "its a "low riding car" lol..and it's an indiviual situation with each dealer." I have had over 20 cars in almost 40 yrs of driving and I never had a windshield as poor quality "soft glass, pitting )as the Mini. On 2nd windshield and it looks 10 yrs old. (I had a 1970 VW bug with the orginial winddhield in it (32 yrs old) and it looked better than the MINI in 7 months..) BMW/MINI..Step up to the plate and admit you have a "problem" with the windshields and correct it by getting another vendor with stronger/harder glass and do a RECALL on all current Mini's and offer refunds to us folks who had to pay an insurance deductable. All your GOOD PRESS is going down the tubes because of the 1 & 10 rule where as customer is happy,he will tell 1 person, UNHAPPY..tells 10!! About 8 months ago you put out a post RE: windshielss saying we know we have some "problems",,we hear you and are working on it"!.. Time has come to stop "working on the problem," and REPLACE the defective windshields.!!..What do we have to do as a MINI community to get MINIUSA to sit up and take notice?..Repeat after me..LOVE R MINI's, HATE the subpar WINDSHIELDS!! WCS..Livonia, MI

 

I’ve experienced the windshield fun pack. Seems the dealers may not have a clever conspiracy to duck warrantee work. The truth lies somewhere up the corporate ladder.

I worked for a dealer a few years back and discovered the warrantee mystic. The factory sets the reimbursed labor rate at nearly cost, let’s say $40 per hour. They also determine the flat rate of time they will pay for a particular task. The book will show windscreen fitment:1.3 hrs. The part(s) are shipped at no charge but the dealer eats the actual labor time and expense.

If the factory adjusts the replacement rate it can hurt the dealer especially on a high fail part. I have seen this done many times when the OEM gets too many submissions on an expensive item.

The result is that the dealer may instruct the SA to get out his pen.

 

Quite simply, I have learned through the years that I expect to love my car and hate the company that manufactured it.

However, I was optimistic and hoped that MINI's outstanding pre-sale service would continue once I drove away from the lot.

Turns out that as great as this car is, it is still made by a crummy big auto company and I get the same crummy service I have come to expect.

Sigh

I do love my MINI though

 

Dave - Great post. I have a funny story about MINI USA and sometimes rabid enthusiasm. MINI USA called me whenever I purchased a new MINI. I've gone through a MC, MCS and my mom has a CVT. The contact phone # that is left for these purchases is my cell phone. MINI USA would follow up witha congratulatory call on a new purchase of their vehicle. Well, a couple of times they did not take the time difference into consideration (I'm in Hawaii) and I got phone calls at 3 AM! I did answer the call, but reminded them of my location and the time difference and told them not to do it again. I don't recall if they apologized for calling me at that hour.