Look you can say all you want about BMW doing the right thing but doing the right thing and doing the right thing in the right way are two different animals.

If BMW/Mini really cared about the MCO site and the customers that are members BMW/Mini would have appraoched this whole thing from a direction of support and 'how can we work this thing out" attitude.

But nooooooooooooo, if you read the earlier memos from BMW/Mini that Mark posted it is very clear BMW had no interest in 'working things out'. Their position was clear, they came across as a bunch corporate lawyers who were doing nothing more than justifying their own existance period! They figured that squeezing hard in the beginning and dragging things out to cause more expenses would make the site go away, well guess what, they were wrong and this entire thread about BMW doing what is right is a bunch of crap!

 

>>Congratulations and good luck in the PR field. I have a degree in PR and worked for several years for the largest PR agency on the planet...now, let's see if you can name it....:smile:
>>
>>As for your contention that the lawyers shouldn't have been the people to contact MCO, I'm afraid I must disagree. The lawyers are exactly the people to make contact because that is their job...to represent the company in matters of a legal nature.
>>
>>This is not to say that someone from marketing or PR shouldn't also be involved, but when it comes to legal issues, the lawyers speak and the others follow.

OOOO! :smile: But first - general hiring, firing, policies, procedures, and making the place a fun place to work. Then hopefully I'll be able to use my writing and speaking skills to get the message across.

I think my driving a MINI will help send the right message, don't you?

 

>>OOOO! :smile: But first - general hiring, firing, policies, procedures, and making the place a fun place to work. Then hopefully I'll be able to use my writing and speaking skills to get the message across.
>>
>>I think my driving a MINI will help send the right message, don't you?
>>
>>

Hi Cat...

The firm is known as Fleishman-Hillard. For the most part we did customer facing PR...meaning getting articles and reviews printed in magazines, aired on Televisiona and radio and such.

Internal PR can often be as important or more important than external. Good luck in the new gig.

 

>>But nooooooooooooo, if you read the earlier memos from BMW/Mini that Mark posted it is very clear BMW had no interest in 'working things out'. Their position was clear, they came across as a bunch corporate lawyers who were doing nothing more than justifying their own existance period! They figured that squeezing hard in the beginning and dragging things out to cause more expenses would make the site go away, well guess what, they were wrong and this entire thread about BMW doing what is right is a bunch of crap!



Bear in mind that the legal department and marketing department are likely in two different cities if not in two different buildings. I have no idea. Also understand that legal and marketing are often at odds over how to handle most things. The fact is that the legal department may not have had any idea that MCO existed until shortly before they wrote the letter to MCO.

The only reason I started this thread was to share my experience with rennlist.com. When all was said and done, the name was changed, and the site lives on quite happily. Is it frustrating, yes. Is it wrong, no.

 

>>Imagine if I owned a vacant wooded lot next to my home. One day, I notice that some people are standing on my lot pointing and looking around. The next day, I notice the people are clearing brush and small bushes from the property. I don't say a thing. I just continue to look out my window. A week passes, and I now see that the people have cleared the lot and are beginning to lay a foundation. Still, I just continue to look out my window. A few months later, a huge home has been framed on my lot. I still don't protest the fact that a home is being constructed on the lot which I own. Instead, I actually walk over and offer my assistance to the workers constructing the home. I tell them if they need anything, to please call me, and I'll be glad to help them. A year later, a huge home is constructed, and it's a beauty. I continue to walk over occasionally and offer my assistance to the finish carpenters as they put the finishing touches on the home. Two years pass, and the home is complete. Everything is finished.
>>
>>The next day, I hire some lawyers and send them next door and have them speak to the owners of the house. The lawyers tell them that they have built their home on my lot, and it is totally unacceptable. The lawyers tell them they will have to move their home or face legal ramifications.
>>
>>Is there anything wrong with this picture? Why did the owner of the lot wait so long before reacting? I think even my kindergarten-aged son could tell you what is wrong.



A better question would be why did the folks building the house not know that they were setting themselves up for a problem?

 

It is a good question, but I don't know that it's a better question. :smile:

Forgive my manners for not saying this sooner. I'd like to welcome you to MCO as a new member. While we may disagree over this issue, I value your contributions to this site. Debate, as long as it is civil, can be fun and enlightening. As they say, there are always two sides to every story.

Do you own a MINI, and if so, what are the specs?

See ya,
JS

 

>>>>
>>It is a good question, but I don't know that it's a better question. :smile:
>>
>>Forgive my manners for not saying this sooner. I'd like to welcome you to MCO as a new member. While we may disagree over this issue, I value your contributions to this site. Debate, as long as it is civil, can be fun and enlightening. As they say, there are always two sides to every story.
>>
>>Do you own a MINI, and if so, what are the specs?
>>
>>See ya,
>>JS


Thanks for the welcome! No, I am not Jack Pitney...wish I were. No, I do not currently own a MINI, three BMWs at the moment, but am looking very closely at a Cooper S sometime in the spring. Not sure yet how things will workout on that front.

Came across this site during my research and noticed the thread on the trademark issue and wanted to put in my two cents relative my past experience with Porsche.

One other thing to note that I haven't yet expressed is the benefits to all MINI owners associated with a staunch defense of the trademark. Anything that weakens brand identity weakens the brand. Weakening of the brand affects all owners when it comes to resale value, etc.

This is not to say the MCO specifically weakens the brand...personally I feel these types of communities enhance the brand and ownership experience. However, if BMW does not defend the brand in ALL instances, it sets itself up for trouble down the road from other sites, entities.

As for a lack of familiarity with the territory, I still don't buy it. Anyone thinking of putting up a website with Coke in the name should know there will be legal issues. I understand a few mistakes have been on both sides, but ignorance of the law is not a defense for breaking it...this I've learned from many scrapes with my local constables regarding unposted speed limits and such...if you know what I mean.

 

>>
>>Please explain why mazda, ford and others don't worry about the morons? Just look at Miata.net. In fact, Gary (the site owner) has Mazda as a paying sponsor.
>>
>>

i think we're allowed to use 'Cooper', just not MINI...miata.net isn't using the mazda name...same with newcelica.net not using the toyota name, etc...

 

Thanks Bimmerfan! :smile:

You said you owned 3 kinds of Bimmers - which ones?

I must say I've enjoyed this thread. It's educated me, entertained me, and everyone's been astute and thoughtful and even erudite! And there's been none of that awful negativity, as far as I can tell anyway.

So... thanks everyone! Have a beer on me!

 

>>Thanks Bimmerfan! :smile:
>>
>>You said you owned 3 kinds of Bimmers - which ones?
>>
>>I must say I've enjoyed this thread. It's educated me, entertained me, and everyone's been astute and thoughtful and even erudite! And there's been none of that awful negativity, as far as I can tell anyway.
>>
>>So... thanks everyone! Have a beer on me!

Hi Cat,

I currently drive a 1992 735i or a 2001 325i 5-speed depending upon my mood. My wife drives a 2002 X5.

And, yes this has been a rather calm and informative thread.

 

>>I believe the reason for all of this is clear. BMW cannot pick on MINI2 because it is not operated in the states. If it were, I believe they would be having similar problems.

It is my understanding the the UK honors US trademarks. As such MINI2 is in exactly the same spot as MCO...whether they have been advised of this yet I have no idea. MINI2 has been operating for 2.5 years, collects $ from advertisers, is currently listed in the MINI Owner's Lounge as a resource, and has MINI in the name. According to the legal team I've had to deal with this is something that will not be tolerated.

Also, in the event that you may have missed a little nuance, clubs with MINI in their names, and have links to "commercial" sites (ie - MCO, Mini-Mania, etc.) are also at risk. Its not that they generate money from having these links on their sites its just that they have links. This I do not understand.

As Casey mentioned I have not had a problem with changing the name of the site. What I do have a problem with is the legal team not taking the time to provide clear guidelines on the policy that BMW/MINI wishes to exert on the community so that everyone doesn't have to spend valuable time and money (for lawyers) trying to figure out what they want. In our case they first suggested names with MINI in them because they said MINI COOPER was the problem. Later they decided to look at making a distinction between enthusiast vs. commercial sites...and lumped MCO into the latter bucket and thereby removed the option to use MINI in the name.

The lawyers have been anything but consistent in dealing with MCO. I would have hoped that MINI/BMW and their legal team would have first given consideration on what the site offers to their customers and at least had the decency to give me a call to discuss their issues before taking a heavy handed approach. It would have been much simpler to work with me (and everyone) to provide guidelines before lawyers got involved...and started charging myself and BMW billable hours.

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

I completely understand your position, and I know from experience that it sucks. Here you've built this great community for enthusiasts, and at what seems like the 11th hour, BMW swoops down and puts the clamps on things.

I agree that this could have been handled better on the legal front as far as guidance is concerned for a name change. However, they really didn't have to offer any guidance. The fact that they are trying to work with you on this says volumes about how valuable they think this community is. They could have simply said...chang the name, you have 30 days...and then walked away.

It sounds to me that they are of two minds about how to handle it, and their position is evolving over time. Once a suggestion is made, the legal team then needs to research...yet again...what precedent this may set from a legal perspective and then adjust the position if necessary.

Again, I understand your position all too well. The sad truth is that they have the trademark, you are using it without authorization, and they want it to stop.

The only thing I might suggest...and I have no idea how to pursue this or to what end the effort may lead...is to look at BMWCCA...ie BMW Car Club of America. This is an actual club made up of owners with chapters worldwide.

This club has been in existance for a long, long time, they use BMW in their name, and it is sanctioned by BMW. What they pay for that use I do not know. But it may be work asking what MINI USA would consider a car club, and if MCO might help lead the charge on developing this type of organization.

Again, I don't know if the above suggestion is a pipe dream or not, but it may be worth asking the question.

Failing the above, as was the case with Porschelist, you need to find a new name and cahnge things over.

I hope this helps in some way.

 

The above comments are totally unbelievable! I had to read it twice. Does self righteousness justify the principle?

"However, they really didn't have to offer any guidance." -

Although Mark is doing what is best and he already said he has no issues with changing the site name, MINI has absoilutly nothing to gain by these actions. It's been demonstarted time after time that this entire use of a product's identification has spawned additional attention to the market in thousands of industries where a durable good is in question. Just look at "JEEP" the MINI could have been the legendary "JEEP"

Insulting.

 

>>The above comments are totally unbelievable! I had to read it twice. Does self righteousness justify the principle?
>>
>>"However, they really didn't have to offer any guidance." -
>>
>>Although Mark is doing what is best and he already said he has no issues with changing the site name, MINI has absoilutly nothing to gain by these actions. It's been demonstarted time after time that this entire use of a product's identification has spawned additional attention to the market in thousands of industries where a durable good is in question. Just look at "JEEP" the MINI could have been the legendary "JEEP"
>>
>>Insulting.
>>
>>

Zappa,

Sorry to insult you, but the fact is MINI didn't have to offer advice. The comment was intended to show that MINI does care, and does want this site to continue, but under a different name.

And, I disagree with your assertion that MINI doesn't have anything to gain. It really isn't about gaining anything, it's about losing the right to defend the trademark, no more, no less.